How Do we Know the Gospels are Historical?

http://www.strangenotions.com ^ | Fr. Dwight Longenecker

[NKP_Vet]

Among Catholics and atheists, is easy to exchange convinced assertions: “The gospels are 100% God’s holy Word and every bit is historically accurate!” or “The gospels are fairy tales!” However there is a discipline called “Biblical scholarship” in which scholars do some very interesting work determining just which parts of the gospels they think are reliable and which they think are not. Their conclusions are, of course, debated. That’s what scholars do. Their work is fascinating and it is worth taking some time to look at just a smidgen of their methodology and conclusions.

Bible scholars are most interested in trying to determine whether the original gospels record eyewitness accounts, and whether those original versions have been transmitted accurately. To do this scholars consider several factors: 1) authorship and date of composition, 2) intention and genre, 3) gospel sources and oral tradition, 4) textual criticism, 5) historical authenticity of specific sayings and narrative events.

One of the difficult aspects for modern people to understand is just what kind of document the gospels are. Everyone can admit that they are not written as purely historical documents, but neither are they simply fabulous fables, myths, or fairy tales. In continuity with the Old Testament, and consistent with their Jewish origins, we have documents which are presented as history and have plenty of historically verifiable details, but which also have supernatural and otherworldly elements to them

[NKP_Vet]

Best post of the day. Thanks.

[NKP_Vet]

“But these have been recorded”

And where would those recordings be?

[redleghunter]

Even more here FRiend:

http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/the-new-testament-is-archaeologically-verifiable/

I have to give full credit to Dr. Gary Butner (GarySpFc) ThD for the majority of the post #95 quote. He has been using it for years and as such has led me to investigate the historian Dr. Luke more.

GarySpFc has a wonderful site I invite all to take a look at.

http://errantskeptics.org/

At the above site you can look at links which give scholarly estimates of the dating of OT and NT books; quotes on faith and the Bible from our founders; and a lot more.

[Fuzz]

“Then you assumed wrongly.”

Darn. See what happens when we assume?

“One can see and touch Buddhism. It exists. It is NOT a myth.”

Yes, kind of obvious it exists. Never said it didn’t, never called Buddhists mythological creatures either. It exists, and has for longer than Christianity, as has Hinduism and other belief systems still practiced today. You’re arguing against statements I’ve never made and misrepresenting the ones I have.

“Now Buddha himself might be a myth; I’ve no way of knowing.”

Why not?

“I explained (quite well I thought) that SOME consider Buddhism to be a religion (true or not is in the eye of the beholder) to me it is NOT a ‘religion’, for it has no GOD.”

It does, and whether or not you consider to be a true religion or not is immaterial to the discussion.

[metmom]

All most of your types have is a bunch of learned and memorized words and verses, devoid of real life and good energy.

Not possible. The WORD is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword.

It CAN'T be devoid of life or spiritual *energy*.

Satan's biggest and best tactic is to disparage the word of God. *Did God really say...???

You have fallen for it, hook, line, and sinker.

Psalm 119:11 I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.

Psalm 1:1-3 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers.

Proverbs 30: 5 Every word of God is tried and purified; He is a shield to those who trust and take refuge in Him.

Psalm 119: 105 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.

[Elsie]

And where would those recordings be?

Definitely NOT here!

[Elsie]

It does, and whether or not you consider to be a true religion or not is immaterial to the discussion.

I never mentioned TRUE.

[Elsie]

Someone else has commented...

James 1:27
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

[jjotto]

It is, of course, nothing like a ‘game of telephone’.

It’s much more like a college course; material is written down for anyone to read, and acknowledged experts relay further explanations that they learned from their teachers, and the material is discussed and debated openly. Those who best master the material then become teachers themselves and are granted status and emulated. Someone who misrepresents the texts or the lectures is challenged by others with the same background.

Nothing at all like a hurried secret conversation such as in the game of telephone.

[Theo]

Exactly.

[PhilipFreneau]

The Resurrection Argument That
Changed A Generation of Scholars

The Historical Evidence for Jesus'
Resurrection That Even Skeptics Believe

You might be interested in this lecture on the resurrection and early Church using historical documentation and the timing of Paul, Peter and others. It is two hours long, but there is a lot of revealing information throughout, including an excellent Q&A segment at the end. Click on this link for the lecture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay_Db4RwZ_M

Philip

[fabian]

You don’t get it..the Word is a metaphor for spirit...do you really think that in the beginning of the bible, when referring to Jesus as the word, they meant the written word? Of course not. You guys have a false learned salvation from which the real spirit of truth is blocked out. and I already know your response...it is very predictable.

[GarySpFc]

If the Church that wrote, copied, preserved and canonized the Bible was fallible, then the Bible could be errant.
R.C. Sproul had the integrity to admit as much, calling the Bible a “fallible collection of infallible books.”
It’s not a coherent position, but at least he was intellectually honest.

Please produce the statement by R. C. Sproul that the Bible could be errant. Dr. Sproul signed the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy affirming his belief that the Bible is inerrant. The following quote is from his website.

There is a common assumption that the Bible is “full” of errors and contradictions, and that its often-unusual people and events render it useless for today. These ideas are fueled by the teachings of scholarly critics, who seem to delight in raising questions about the Bible’s truthfulness and integrity.

But the critics of the Bible are wrong, according to Dr. R. C. Sproul in this Crucial Questions booklet. In fact, he says, there are many solid reasons to trust the Bible. With Jesus, with the apostles and prophets, and with men of God throughout church history, Dr. Sproul affirms a high view of Scripture—that it is inspired of God and therefore inerrant and infallible.

[roamer_1]

When he gets to 12 & 12, he’ll be a “biblical scholar”...

HA!

[boatbums]

Thank for the excerpt from “Evidence That Demands a Verdict”. I know personally several people who came to saving faith in Christ by reading it and many whose faith was encouraged and edified.

[boatbums]

I was quoting directly from Scripture, Hebrews 4:12 which says the word of God "judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart". And I respectfully have to disagree with you about God judging. He is a just and righteous judge, unlike human judges, because He CAN know the thoughts and intents of the heart.

People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart. (I Samuel 16:7)

[boatbums]

I hope your "noggin" is feeling better. ☺

I agree with you about Messianic prophecies. We can look at Psalm 22, which talks about hands and feet being pierced (v. 16) as well as all the crucified one's "bones are out of joint" (v. 14) - something that WOULD happen from being hung stretched out and then the cross dropped into a hole. Verse 18 says, "They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment." - something that DID happen to Jesus. What is truly shocking to me is how the ancient Jewish religious leaders knew about all these prophecies - knowing exactly how to identify the Messiah when he came - yet many STILL rejected Jesus in spite of his fulfilling them.

Some skeptics have stated that Jesus put himself in the situations so that it would only appear like he was the one prophesied, but that is such a ridiculous notion it's hard to imagine it answers the many questions that would arise. Questions such as how Jesus could have determined where he would be born and what lineage he would have or that his mother would be a virgin. I find it laughable that they could think Jesus would be up on the cross directing the Roman soldiers on how to divide his clothing and to not rip up his cloak. He couldn't have known after he died that the soldiers wouldn't break his legs (a standard act to speed up the execution) but which fulfilled Psalm 34:20 which says, "He keeps all his bones; not one of them is broken." and which John 19:31-37 says:

Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,” and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

Thank you for your kind words. It blesses me to hear when the Lord uses this forum to encourage others.

[redleghunter]

Good post. It was that abomination of a movie “The Last Temptation” which pitched the idea Jesus methodically checked off prophecies to be fulfilled. The lead actor William Defoe was seen having meetings with the disciples telling them what must come next. So we have a new generation of skepticism based on that movie and the explosion of atheist internet sites spreading the lies.

[boatbums]

Jesus’ disciples witnessed His death. They also witnessed Him after the resurrection. They were willing to undergo the most severe torture and deaths. Would they do that if they did not believe Christ was raised from the dead?

Some people may die for a lie, but NO ONE would die for what they KNOW is a lie.

[boatbums]

but the bible is missing an important link to the holy spirit

Horse hockey! The Holy Spirit is the reason there IS a Bible! Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1:21)