Papacy / Hierarchy in the Bible

http://thechurchofchristiscatholic.com ^

[NKP_Vet]

The following outline shows that Jesus intended to create a holy, visible Church; complete with a prime minister, a hierarchy, binding authority, and perpetuity—the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

It is important for Protestants to understand some basic facts. Contrary to the modern belief that the Bible is a “blueprint” or “textbook” which explains how a church should be structured, it is a product of the Catholic Church—a compilation of writings that reflect a structure that was already present. As such, the “Bible alone” has no reason to provide fine details of proper ecclesiology; however, proper ecclesiology is detectable. Shortly after Jesus’ resurrection, the Catholic Church wrote lots of letters. The Catholic Church discerned which of those letters were inspired. By the end of the fourth century (Councils of Hippo A.D. 393 and Carthage A.D. 397) the Catholic Church finalized the “table of contents” of the Scriptures and called the entire body of writing “the Bible”. In other words, the Bible would not even exist if the popes and the hierarchy did not exist.

[Elsie]

Then there are the half screens of text; font size 6; that scroll by so fast they blur.

[xzins]

Honestly, Elsie, I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Who is a chipmunk?

[Elsie]

...bury THEM with Facts.

[Elsie]

Let's back up to Mary; filtering MILLIONS of prayers daily to Jesus...

[xzins]

All I wrote was about sola scriptura. Someone else must have been discussing Mary with you. It wasn’t me.

[metmom]

Specific traditions.

If it’s written down, then it’s not oral tradition, it’s Scripture.

If there is tradition outside of Scripture, which Catholicism does indeed teach there is, then there must be a source for those traditions.

What are they? How do you know they’re from the apostles and have been handed down faithfully?

What are your sources for verifying the information?

[metmom]

Prove it’s a heresy? Where in the Bible are the words, sola scriptura??

Where in the Bible are the words ......

Catholic church?

eucharist?

assumption?

immaculate conception?

mass?

trinity?

confirmation?

sacraments?

last rites?

pope?

magisterium?

purgatory?

sacred tradition?

indulgences?

annulment?

rosary?

confessional?

icon?

mother of GOD?

transubstantiation?

real presence?

[metmom]

All of these things are a reasonable first step for their respective problems. No one could say otherwise. No one could reasonably say, “Just go it alone, read the manual again read the math book again, just pray for your marriage don’t seek help. It will all work out if you just have enough ‘faith’”. No one would say that in those situations, not to themselves, not to others.

That's what God sent the Holy Spirit for.

[metmom]

Funny analogy.......

[metmom]

This from Romans who burned Tyndale at the stake for the grevious crime of publishing the Bible in English? Actually they WANTED to burn him, they relented and strangled him at the stake instead. A Roman, no less, telling non-Romans to read their Bibles? Give me a break.

The irony goes deeper.

Non-Catholics are continually castigated and condemned for sola Scriptura, every man his own pope, YOPIOS and now they're telling us to go to the Bible for answers?

Blinding hypocrisy.......

[Salvation]

I know this doesn't answer your question, but I think it applies to many posts here...especially the last part. And yes, it's good for both sides of the isle.

Reading 1 Lv 19:1-2, 11-18 The LORD said to Moses, “Speak to the whole assembly of the children of Israel and tell them: Be holy, for I, the LORD, your God, am holy. “You shall not steal. You shall not lie or speak falsely to one another. You shall not swear falsely by my name, thus profaning the name of your God. I am the LORD. “You shall not defraud or rob your neighbor. You shall not withhold overnight the wages of your day laborer. You shall not curse the deaf, or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but you shall fear your God. I am the LORD. “You shall not act dishonestly in rendering judgment. Show neither partiality to the weak nor deference to the mighty, but judge your fellow men justly. You shall not go about spreading slander among your kin; nor shall you stand by idly when your neighbor’s life is at stake. I am the LORD. “You shall not bear hatred for your brother in your heart. Though you may have to reprove him, do not incur sin because of him. Take no revenge and cherish no grudge against your fellow countrymen. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.”

[metmom]

No, it doesn’t address my comment in the least.

If sola Scriptrua is discredited and invalidated because those very words to not appear in Scripture, then that whole list of Catholic teaching is also discredited and invalidated.

That sword cuts both ways.

[Salvation]

I appreciate your post. Very readable.

On the other hand we hand the Gospel and Letters of John that tell us that not everything is in the Bible.

Also my pastor mentioned something that St. Paul said quoting Jesus, and since St. Paul never meet Jesus, it had to be tradition — the passing on of messages face to face and person to person.

I’ll post the quotes from John in the next post.

[Salvation]

John, chapter 21

 

Conclusion.

24It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them,^* and we know that his testimony is true.ⁿ

25There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.^o

2 John, chapter 1

 

12^* Although I have much to write to you, I do not intend to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and to speak face to face so that our joy may be complete.^h

3 John, chapter 1

 

13I have much to write to you, but I do not wish to write with pen and ink.^h

14Instead, I hope to see you soon, when we can talk face to face.

15Peace be with you. The friends greet you; greet the friends^* there each by name.ⁱ

And thank you for listening and reading. It's amazing what the tone of a message can convey. I think of you as a friend and not an adversary that sends me harsh messages. (And believe me, I've been getting a slew of them.) Sometimes it's so difficult not to reply in kind.

God bless you!

[Salvation]

**So, In sum, we have the early Church testifying that Scripture is the word of the prophets and apostles, that it is authoritative, AND that their message is the FOUNDATION.**

Catholics believe this too. It’s just that there is more as St. John explains in his Gospel and in two of his letters — and that is Holy Tradition.

The fact that it is in the Bible three times, to me, is very significant.

[Salvation]

The trinity is found in the Bible, but not the word 'trinity' as such.

 

Matthew, chapter 28

 

The Commissioning of the Disciples.^*

16^f The eleven^* disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them.

17^* When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted.

18^{* g} Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19^h Go, therefore,^* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

20ⁱ teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.^* And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

[xzins]

Thanks for the quotes from John. I'd love to have a discussion with your pastor about the Apostle Paul and Jesus. He, of course, will acknowledge that Paul did meet Jesus on the Road to Damascus, but I know that your pastor's talking about meeting Jesus prior to the crucifixion.

That's why I'd like to discuss with him.

1. Paul was much younger when originally arriving in Jerusalem. Paul says: Acts 22:3 "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today.

2. In Acts 23 Paul has his sister's son, who was living in Jerusalem, helped in saving his life. In other words, some of his immediate family was also living in Jerusalem.

3. In Romans he reveals that he had relatives, Adronicus and Junia, who became Christians BEFORE he did. Since his Damascus road experience was probably somewhere around the 7th year following Pentecost, and since the persecution that began with Stephen's death was about 5 years after Pentecost, then it's reasonable to assume these other relatives were also somewhere in or around Judea.

4. Paul was the instigator at the stoning of Stephen, some 5 years after Pentecost. This means that he already had a rage toward Christ and Christianity.

5. Jesus' presence in Jerusalem multiple times over 3 years was most often public.

Summation: Given that Paul was BROUGHT UP in Jerusalem, had a rage toward Christians, and had moved in and about Jerusalem for some time, it is very reasonable to assume that the Apostle Paul had witnessed some aspect of Jesus' ministry.

This is, of course, my opinion, but I think I base it is reasonable when looking at the facts. Paul might well have been one of those Jesus referenced when saying, "Scribes, Pharisees, Hypocrites...."

[Salvation]

None of those examples ring a bell with me. I’ll ask him tomorrow. Today is his day off.

[xzins]

Thanks for the scripture from John. They all are very clear that John had knowledge of much more that involved Jesus than was written down.

Too bad no one picked his brain and wrote it down.

In any case, we still would be talking about an Apostle, about words coming from him, and about his authority as an Apostle.

[xzins]

Ohhh...the weakness in making such a case about Paul is that Paul was fairly talkative, and no doubt would have mentioned in direct encounter with Jesus or direct witnessing of any sermon, miracle, moment, etc.

So, it would have been peripheral or with only one or two degrees of separation.