Posted on 03/08/2014 10:06:40 PM PST by NKP_Vet
The following outline shows that Jesus intended to create a holy, visible Church; complete with a prime minister, a hierarchy, binding authority, and perpetuity—the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
It is important for Protestants to understand some basic facts. Contrary to the modern belief that the Bible is a “blueprint” or “textbook” which explains how a church should be structured, it is a product of the Catholic Church—a compilation of writings that reflect a structure that was already present. As such, the “Bible alone” has no reason to provide fine details of proper ecclesiology; however, proper ecclesiology is detectable. Shortly after Jesus’ resurrection, the Catholic Church wrote lots of letters. The Catholic Church discerned which of those letters were inspired. By the end of the fourth century (Councils of Hippo A.D. 393 and Carthage A.D. 397) the Catholic Church finalized the “table of contents” of the Scriptures and called the entire body of writing “the Bible”. In other words, the Bible would not even exist if the popes and the hierarchy did not exist.
(Excerpt) Read more at thechurchofchristiscatholic.com ...
But one must be careful when pulling additional information to comply with copyright restrictions.
The “summation” of the article I posted is 100% fact.
The reproof is not simply your failure to note the source, as this was not posted by the OP, but that your modus operandi is to resort to simply copy and paste polemics, and this was quite a tome, or links, as a substitute for your own, and then fail to engage in point by point rebuttals. As you did already today.
If you really think this tome that you posted is a worthy apologetic, post one point from it at a time and i will debate you on it. If you will not then it is simply seen as more pasted propaganda.
"The Peter Syndrome is a deadly disease rampant amongst modern Roman Catholic apologists. And it is a disease that makes you see every reference to Peter anywhere in an early father as somehow relevant to the bishop in Rome even if that father never makes that connection himself, never shows that he believes the bishop of Rome is the vicar of Christ on earth, never says that Peter's successor sit only on the sit in Rome, it doesn't matter as long as an early father says something nice about Peter, therefore he is in support of the bishop of Rome." - James R. White; http://tinubos.blogspot.com/2011/06/james-r-white-peter-syndrome.html - a review of the book Jesus, Peter & the Keys,
I read the rest of the article attached to this thread...did you? The article states in the final section: Sacred Tradition is as authoritative as Sacred Scripture.
And what a glorious authority it is:
From a recent posting by Nkp
In this mess, 'Tradition' trumps scripture, but also trumps the Creeds of the Catholics and Christians for 1100 years of the Catholic church.
Three days later, at the third hour, “Suddenly the Lord Jesus Christ came with a great multitude of angels, and a great light came down upon the place, and the angels were singing hymns and praising the Lord. Then the Savior spoke, saying: ‘Come, most precious pearl, enter into the treasury of eternal life.”
Oh my, the 'tradition' that trumps scripture and Catholic dogma has Christ returning prior to the second coming for His mom's impending funeral. The rest of the story is as fanciful as the Apostles are brought bodily to attend her.
That is just part 1, I doubt part 2 gets posted, but should it, please ping me.
The Apostle's, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds confess, that Christ will come to judge the living and the dead. Who could have imagined, when the Councils decided that point, that Jesus had already returned for His mom's funeral prep. Forget Scripture, be Catholic, but the Creeds are a different form of confession. Who could know or suspect, that they would also fall before 'Tradition'. As Desi said, "Lucy you got a lot of splaining to do."
As a Christian, this type of stuff is painful. The hardening of some Catholic hearts in the face of this type of contradiction shows the depth of the devil's incursion of the Catholic dogma. Not just flying in the face of God's Word, which is bad enough, but their own teaching. Yet there it is. How can a 'good' Catholic put up with the dichotomy unless they are in the serpent's power? It is unfathomable.
In the Second Letter to the Thessalonians, St. Paul is just as explicit: “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2:15).
The problem here is that it should have said it was from the linked original article, as many who simply browse or who were only interested in the content of responses would not know from whence it came, and it lacked any attribution to the copyrighted article.
What's kinda weird to me is that, in your assertions that ONLY your Roman Catholic religion is the one, true church and no one can be a Christian outside of it, y'all are even going against your own papal pronouncements. Didn't Lumen Gentium (part of Vatican II) say:
If your own church declares Christians ARE existing outside of being Roman Catholics, then why don't y'all? Do you believe they were in error when they wrote that? Are you now being your OWN pope?
Just what are those traditions Paul was referring to that he handed down that we are to keep that were not included in Scripture?
How do you know?
How do you know they’re from the apostles, Paul in particular?
How do you know they’ve been passed down faithfully?
What is your source for verifying all of the above?
Please provide the sources for verification purposes.
“Three days later, at the third hour, “Suddenly the Lord Jesus Christ came with a great multitude of angels, and a great light came down upon the place, and the angels were singing hymns and praising the Lord. Then the Savior spoke, saying: ‘Come, most precious pearl, enter into the treasury of eternal life.”
Say what! Catholics believe THIS? Incredible I tell you. And it is we who believe Sola Scriptura, who don’t go around smooching the Koran, who are the heretics? Interesting stuff on this thread.
How can there be salvation outside the church when even the CCC states that there isn't and other popes state the same thing?
Which are we to believe then? Which do CATHOLICS believe?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
Pius 9, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore: “Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff..”
-http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanto.htm
Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Encyclical Singulari Quidem March 17, 1856): “There is only one true, holy, Catholic Church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded on Peter by the word of the Lord, outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church. (On the Unity of the Catholic Church)
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9singul.htm
Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."
Fifth Lateran Council: Moreover, since subjection to the Roman pontiff is necessary for salvation for all Christ's faithful, as we are taught by the testimony of both sacred scripture and the holy fathers, and as is declared by the constitution of pope Boniface VIII of happy memory, also our predecessor, which begins Unam sanctam, we therefore...renew and give our approval to that constitution... Fifth Lateran CouncilSession 11, 19 December 1516,
http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum18.htm
Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV: "One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved, in which the priest himself is the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the species of bread and wine; the bread (changed) into His body by the divine power of transubstantiation, and the wine into the blood, so that to accomplish the mystery of unity we ourselves receive from His (nature) what He Himself received from ours." — Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215) [considered infallible by some]
Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole Church; or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema. — Vatican 1, Ses. 4, Cp. 1
St. Thomas Aquinas: It is also shown that to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is necessary for salvation. For Cyril says in his Thesaurus: “Therefore, brethren, if we imitate Christ so as to hear his voice remaining in the Church of Peter and so as not be puffed up by the wind of pride, lest perhaps because of our quarrelling the wily serpent drive us from paradise as once he did Eve.” And Maximus in the letter addressed to the Orientals [Greeks] says: “The Church united and established upon the rock of Peter’s confession we call according to the decree of the Savior the universal Church, wherein we must remain for the salvation of our souls and wherein loyal to his faith and confession we must obey him.” — St. Thomas Aquinas, Against the Errors of the Greeks, Pt. 2, ch. 36
http://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraErrGraecorum.htm#b38
St. Frances Xavier Cabrini: "Many Protestants have almost the same practices as we, only they do not submit to the Holy Father and attach themselves to the true Ark of Salvation. They do not want to become Catholics and unite themselves under the banner of truth wherein alone there is true salvation. Of what avail is it, children, if Protestants lead naturally pure, honest lives, yet lack the Holy Ghost? They may well say: 'We do no harm; we lead good lives'; but, if they do not enter the true fold of Christ, all their protestations are in vain." St. Frances Xavier Cabrini, "Travels", Chicago: 1944, pp. 84, 71.
St. Ambrose, "Expl. of Luke: "The Lord severed the Jewish people from His kingdom, and heretics and schismatics are also severed from the kingdom of God and from the Church. Our Lord makes it perfectly clear that every assembly of heretics and schismatics belongs not to God, but to the unclean spirit." — St. Ambrose, "Expl. of Luke", ch.7, 91-95; PL 15; SS, vol. II, p. 85, (quoted in The Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 4: "The Book of Christians", Chapter 2: "Those Who Reject Christ's Church are Anti-Christian").http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/6480/catholics/apostolic4chp2.html
Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her' (Canticle of Canticles 6:8); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism' (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed… We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
— Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Promulgated November 18, 1302) "If, therefore, the Greeks or others say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors, they necessarily say that they are not of the sheep of Christ, since the Lord says that there is only one fold and one shepherd (Jn.10:16). Whoever, therefore, resists this authority, resists the command of God Himself. " http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html
Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam: “We declare, say, define, and pronounce [ex cathedra] that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
"If, therefore, the Greeks or others say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors, they necessarily say that they are not of the sheep of Christ, since the Lord says that there is only one fold and one shepherd (Jn.10:16). Whoever, therefore, resists this authority, resists the command of God Himself. " — Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Promulgated November 18, 1302)
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html
Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."
Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence: "The sacrosanct Roman Church...firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that..not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life but will depart `into everlasting fire...unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that..no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”— Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (Seventeenth Ecumenical Council), Cantate Domino, Bull promulgated on February 4, 1441 (Florentine style), [considered infallible by some]
Kind of mind boggling, isn’t it?
A twist of the words, no surprise. These 'traditions' weren't in any of Paul's epistles? You know, the ones that 'were taught by us'? Is there a written version of these oral traditions anywhere or are Christians supposed to buy whatever some latter day Papist says? If they were so important, on par with the revealed word of God, wouldn't Paul would have spoken of them in his dissertation on the 'other Gospel'? Paul wasn't shy about his ministry, but Catholics now suggest he is. That is a tough sell considering these 'traditions' now hailed contravene his other teaching on these subjects as well. Is there some example of these 'traditions' Paul allegedly preached that change the stand in opposition to the general thrust of his ministry? Or is it instead an outlet for other fanciful doctrinal wanderings of the Catholic church?
Who knows, it is 'Holy Tradition', but to be fair, it is only referenced as 'tradition'. Maybe the Holy stuff is more credible. The title of the thread:
What Happened to the Virgin Mary After Pentecost? [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
There is some doubt expressed in the comments, but nothing at the time associated with the Creeds or Catholic eschatology dogma. Like I said, with this sort of fairy tale, it becomes hard to hold Catholics as Christian. Moral yes, the rest, no better than Aesop fables uphold the Greeks. Still, Catholic propers have the Gospel readings, and the Word of God retains its power even in the darkest reaches of superstition and the realm of the devil.
My error, Part 2 was linked in the comments on the thread. I admit, I was laughing so hard at the original, I missed it. When I read Part 2, I had an overwhelming sense of incredulity at the mental and verbal gymnastics that were worthy of the Romanian or Russian Olympic team in that discipline.
I urge all to review both parts, to discern the slim almost non-existent reed that purports to establish this dogma of Mary. After review, the pain re-occurs that Catholics who would be Christian entertain with credulity this type of unsubstantiated tripe, but disdain the Word of God given in the Book 'written by them'.
It's truly amazing, the dedication to an .org that allows this offal to be held up as authentic and normative to the Catholic faith.
Good question. I see a choice between three possible answers:
1. the past infallible pronouncements were fallible.
2. the current infallible pronouncement is fallible.
3. someone hasn't come up with the right combination of weasel words, rationalization or mandate that works out so that BOTH the past and the present pronouncements are right - even if they appear to contradict each other.
4) It’s a *mystery*. The only reason you don’t understand it is that you just haven’t been *properly* catechized, you heretic.
Just cross the Tiber and it will all make sense to you after that.
But Muslims are in.
Oh??
Luke 24:12-53
12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.
13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
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