Pope Francis could support civil unions

CNN ^ | 3/5/2014 | Daniel Burke

[tomsbartoo]

Pope Francis has said that he could support civil unions between members of the same sex; but could not support same-sex marriage.

[redgolum]

LOL!

Sorry, I didn’t catch that.

[NYer]

I attempted to include much more, but the site prevented me from doing so. Regardless, there was a link to the complete article, and what I had posted was a quote from the article itself. It was not taken out of context and I’m sorry you have suggested that it was.

I never said you had taken anything out of context. As a catholic, you should know better than to post an article from CNN as if it were gospel truth. From the Transcript, here is the only mention of civil unions:

Many nations have regulated civil unions. Is it a path that the Church can understand? But up to what point?

Marriage is between a man and a woman. Secular states want to justify civil unions to regulate different situations of cohabitation, pushed by the demand to regulate economic aspects between persons, such as ensuring health care. It is about pacts of cohabitating of various natures, of which I wouldn’t know how to list the different ways. One needs to see the different cases and evaluate them in their variety.

Transcript: Pope Francis' March 5 interview with Corriere della Sera

What did Pope Francis say? Marriage is between a man and a woman. He then clarifies the challenge posed by secular legalization of civil unions and how each one needs to be evaluated. This does not change church doctrine.

For just a moment, set aside your dislike for this particular pope and step back to look at the big picture. Growing up, I watched tv programs like "Ozzie and Harriet" and "My Three Sons". Children growing up today find themselves, as a result of secular society, in very different families. The television networks are responding with programs like "Sister Wives" or the new one "My Five Wives". In the ads, young children asked about their parent's living arrangements respond: "they love each other".

This is the reality of life and the Catholic Church must come to grips with it. The Church, as the pope has said, is like a "field hospital". Jesus went after the lost sheep; the father welcomed back the "prodigal son". It is the mission of the church to bring people back to Christ. You, it seems, would have them turned away.

Today is Ash Wednesday - the entrance into Lent. You had full opportunity to source the full text of the interview from a reputable site but opted, instead, to post an article from a secular media site, and singled out a line of text on one topic without providing the context. This would be an excellent season in which to examine your antipathy towards the Holy Father who is Christ's representative on earth.

[steve86]

This is the reality of life and the Catholic Church must come to grips with it.

You're falling precisely into Lucifer's trap! That's exactly what he is gaming for!!!

The Church instead should work to reinstitute anti-sodomy laws and ban pro-homosexual propoganda (and certainly adoptions), much as Putin is doing.

[NYer]

One or two isolated instances of the Pope’s own words being taken out of context would be believable. But this guy regularly and routinely comes up with more and more WTF comments, quotes and remarks. There can be no denying it. He is pro-queer.

Dear friend, if you read the Transcript: Pope Francis' March 5 interview with Corriere della Sera, you may well be embarrassed by your posting comment.

tomsbartoo, on this holy day, here is an example of the confusion your thread and comment has created.

[Responsibility2nd]

Dear friend, I not only read that transcript - as it has been posted here at FR on a separate thread - I responded to it.

The embarrassment you speak of belongs to papist apologists who have trusted in man-made theology.

[NKP_Vet]

“It is about pacts of cohabitating of various natures, of which I wouldn’t know how to list the different ways. One needs to see the different cases and evaluate them in their variety”.

The above words need to be read carefully. The Pope needs to see the “different cases” before he’ll say anything. In other-words if 50 year bachelor Tom wants his 80 year old mother on his insurance policy that will be one of the cases he would approve of. If Tom and Arnie are two homosexuals that want their civil union blessed by the Church, well then Tom and Arnie are out of luck.

[markomalley]

In other-words if 50 year bachelor Tom wants his 80 year old mother on his insurance policy that will be one of the cases he would approve of.

That's my take on it.

[NKP_Vet]

Good info here. Nothing is changing.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-francis-will-never-approve-homosexual-civil-unions

Specifically on the matter of homosexual civil unions, the Church’s teaching is laid out in a 2003 document approved and ordered published by Pope John Paul II and written by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who was is currently Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI.

That document Considerations Regarding Proposals to give Legal Recognition to unions between Homosexual Persons, leaves no room for doubt on the teaching of the Church regarding homosexual unions. It says:

There are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family. Marriage is holy, while homosexual acts go against the natural moral law. Homosexual acts “close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved”.
In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection.
The Church teaches that respect for homosexual persons cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behaviour or to legal recognition of homosexual unions

And what weight does this Vatican document ordered published by the Pope carry? Could the thrust of it be reversed by a future Pope?

To answer that I spoke with Professor Scott Nicholson, the Chair of the Theology at Our Lady Seat of Wisdom Academy, ranked one of the most faithful Catholic colleges in North America by the Cardinal Newman Society.

Professor Nicholson said that the document in question, issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, expressly approved by the Pope has the same status as the Catechism. (see ref. Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium 25, and On the Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian, AAS 82, pp. 1550-1570) In theological parlance, they “participate in the ordinary magisterium of the successor of Peter.”

Thus, the document on homosexual civil unions, he said, “demands religious submission of mind and will.”

[irishjuggler]

I pray for the Holy Father, but I can't bury my head in the sand. As CNN points out, there is a consistency between these comments and the reports a year ago that Cardinal Bergoglio had no objection to the concept of civil unions in Argentina:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/20/world/americas/argentina-pope-civil-unions/

Look, Catholic doctrine is clear that homosexual activity is objectively disordered and morally wrong. The idea that it's fine, though, for the secular state to give legal sanction to such relationships as long as the term 'marriage' is avoided is contrary to the principle that the Church must stand in opposition to secular laws that are gravely opposed to natural moral law.

Pope John Paul II made this clear in 2003:

"The Church teaches that the respect for homosexual persons cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behavior or to legal recognition of homosexual unions. The common good requires that laws recognize, promote and protect marriage as the basis of the family, the primary unit of society. Legal recognition of homosexual unions or placing them on the same level as marriage would mean not only the approval of deviant behavior, with the consequence of making it a model in present-day society, but would also obscure basic values which belong to the common inheritance of humanity. The Church cannot fail to defend these values, for the good of men and women and for the good of society itself". "The principles of respect and non-discrimination cannot be invoked to support legal recognition of homosexual unions. Differentiating between persons or refusing social recognition or benefits is unacceptable only when it is contrary to justice. The denial of the social and legal status of marriage to forms of cohabitation that are not and cannot be marital is not opposed to justice; on the contrary, justice requires it"
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20120330_nota-farley_en.html

[franky8]

2 MEN CAN LIVE TOGETHER 2 WOMEN TOGETHER BROTHERS AND SISTERS DO IT ALL THE TIME, WHAT GAY’S WANT IS CONSUMMATION. NO ! NO ! THAT’S THE SIN!

[Jvette]

Amen.

You have graciously said what needed to be said regarding this thread. As I read through the comments I am saddened by the fact that I am not surprised by the reactions from different factions.

The Church through the leadership of Pope Francis is treading lightly through this minefield of new societal norms. Catholic teaching is clear and unchanged, but society has changed greatly.

There is no one that the Church considers discards and that includes the most obstinately sinful among us. I admire Francis’ gentle approach to these difficult situations especially in light of the children involved.

The Truth has been spoken, the task of the Church is to proclaim and protect the truth while fulfilling Jesus’ great commission to make disciples of all nations, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you.

Jesus taught about love, forgiveness and reconciliation with the Father. How can the Church do any less in preaching the Good News of salvation through Christ?

[Secret Agent Man]

If only everything could have a good professional translation.

[NYer]

The Church through the leadership of Pope Francis is treading lightly through this minefield of new societal norms. Catholic teaching is clear and unchanged, but society has changed greatly.

Jesus taught about love, forgiveness and reconciliation with the Father. How can the Church do any less in preaching the Good News of salvation through Christ?

Thank you, Jvette! The discussion continues on another thread. Here is the link to THAT response. That freepers who consider themselves to be "orthodox catholic", should selectively use one quote from an interview to lambast the pope on Ash Wednesday, is heart wrenching. Have they not understood the significance of penance?!

[Genoa]

From the Christian Post: "Matrimony is between a man and a woman," the pope said in an article by the Corriere della Sera, translated by Catholic News Service, but added that "diverse situations of cohabitation [are] driven by the need to regulate economic aspects among persons, as for instance to assure medical care." This is horrendous any way you spin it.

[steve86]

I admire Francis’ gentle approach to these difficult situations especially in light of the children involved.

Then you admire any liberal's gentle approach to sin (which inevitably leads to encouragement and acceptance of it).

It seems that your faction is impressed by the mercy and forgiveness aspect of Christianity (that's fine) but is blind to the prohibition and condemnation aspect starting with Adam and Eve, through the Ten Commandments, and on through the New Testament.

And no one, especially the traditional "faction" is endeavoring to 'discard' anyone. But they (All sinners) have to acknowledge the repugnance of their behavior and sinfulness and stop doing it!

The Catholic Church is really not a hospitality organization. To fully participate in The Church you need to comply with certain standards of behavior and thought.

[Genoa]

To fully participate in The Church you need to comply with certain standards of behavior and thought.

Tell that to the Pope!

[NYer]

As CNN points out ...

So, you trust a liberal, secular media outlet for your news on the Catholic Church. Please take off the blinders and set your soul straight. CNN, like MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC and every other secular media outlet would like nothing more than to see the Catholic Church crumble to the ground. Many have tried, none has succeeded.

[steve86]

So to receive The Holy Eucharist you don't need to comply with certain standards of behavior and thought (since your last Confession)?

Guess I misunderstood the Canon Law on this.

[steve86]

Maybe I misunderstood your comment, sorry. I can interpret it either way.

[Genoa]

My meaning: You are very likely more Catholic than the Pope on this one.