Posted on 02/16/2014 9:39:17 PM PST by restornu
Filioque is a theological formula of great dogmatic and historical importance. On the one hand, it expresses the Procession of the Holy Ghost from both Father and Son as one Principle; on the other, it was the occasion of the Greek schism. Both aspects of the expression need further explanation.
The dogma of the double Procession of the Holy Ghost from Father and Son as one Principle is directly opposed to the error that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father, not from the Son. Neither dogma nor error created much difficulty during the course of the first four centuries. Macedonius and his followers, the so-called Pneumatomachi, were condemned by the local Council of Alexandria (362) and by Pope St. Damasus (378) for teaching that the Holy Ghost derives His origin from the Son alone, by creation. If the creed used by the Nestorians, which was composed probably by Theodore of Mopsuestia, and the expressions of Theodoret directed against the ninth anathema by Cyril of Alexandria, deny that the Holy Ghost derives His existence from or through the Son, they probably intend to deny only the creation of the Holy Ghost by or through the Son, inculcating at the same time His Procession from both Father and Son. At any rate, if the double Procession of the Holy Ghost was discussed at all in those earlier times, the controversy was restricted to the East and was of short duration.
The first undoubted denial of the double Procession of the Holy Ghost we find in the seventh century among the heretics of Constantinople when St. Martin I (649-655), in his synodal writing against the Monothelites, employed the expression "Filioque". Nothing is known about the further development of this controversy; it does not seem to have assumed any serious proportions, as the question was not connected with the characteristic teaching of the Monothelites.
In the Western church the first controversy concerning the double Procession of the Holy Ghost was conducted with the envoys of the Emperor Constantine Copronymus, in the Synod of Gentilly near Paris, held in the time of Pepin (767). The synodal Acts and other information do not seem to exist. At the beginning of nineth century, John, a Greek monk of the monastery of St. Sabas, charged the monks of Mt. Olivet with heresy, they had inserted the Filioque into the Creed. In the second half the same century, Photius, the successor of the unjustly deposed Ignatius, Patriarch of Constantinople (858), denied the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son, and opposed the insertion of the Filioque into the Constantinopolitan creed. The same position was maintained towards the end of the tenth century by the Patriarchs Sisinnius and Sergius, and about the middle of the eleventh century by the Patriarch Michael Caerularius, who renewed and completed the Greek schism.
The rejection of the Filioque, or the double Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and Son, and the denial of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff constitute even today the principal errors of the Greek church. While outside the Church doubt as to the double Procession of the Holy Ghost grew into open denial, inside the Church the doctrine of the Filioque was declared to be a dogma of faith in the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), the Second council of Lyons (1274), and the Council of Florence (1438-1445). Thus the Church proposed in a clear and authoritative form the teaching of Sacred Scripture and tradition on the Procession of the Third Person of the Holy Trinity.
As to the Sacred Scripture, the inspired writers call the Holy Ghost the Spirit of the Son (Galatians 4:6), the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), the Spirit of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:19), just as they call Him the Spirit of the Father (Matthew 10:20) and the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 2:11). Hence they attribute to the Holy Ghost the same relation to the Son as to the Father.
Again, according to Sacred Scripture, the Son sends the Holy Ghost (Luke 24:49; John 15:26; 16:7; 20:22; Acts 2:33; Titus 3:6), just as the Father sends the Son (Romans 3:3; etc.), and as the Father sends the Holy Ghost (John 14:26).
Now the "mission" or "sending" of one Divine Person by another does not mean merely that the Person said to be sent assumes a particular character, at the suggestion of Himself in the character of Sender, as the Sabellians maintained; nor does it imply any inferiority in the Person sent, as the Arians taught; but it denotes, according to the teaching of the weightier theologians and Fathers, the Procession of the Person sent from the Person Who sends. Sacred Scripture never presents the Father as being sent by the Son, nor the Son as being sent by the Holy Ghost. The very idea of the term "mission" implies that the person sent goes forth for a certain purpose by the power of the sender, a power exerted on the person sent by way of a physical impulse, or of a command, or of prayer, or finally of production; now, Procession, the analogy of production, is the only manner admissible in God. It follows that the inspired writers present the Holy Ghost as proceeding from the Son, since they present Him as sent by the Son.
Finally, St. John (16:13-15) gives the words of Christ: "What things soever he [the Spirit] shall hear, he shall speak; ...he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you. All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine." Here a double consideration is in place. First, the Son has all things that the Father hath, so that He must resemble the Father in being the Principle from which the Holy Ghost proceeds. Secondly, the Holy Ghost shall receive "of mine" according to the words of the Son; but Procession is the only conceivable way of receiving which does not imply dependence or inferiority. In other words, the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son.
The teaching of Sacred Scripture on the double Procession of the Holy Ghost was faithfully preserved in Christian tradition. Even the Greek Orthodox grant that the Latin Fathers maintain the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son. The great work on the Trinity by Petavius (Lib. VII, cc. iii sqq.) develops the proof of this contention at length. Here we mention only some of the later documents in which the patristic doctrine has been clearly expressed:
Some of the foregoing conciliar documents may be seen in Hefele, "Conciliengeschichte" (2d ed.), III, nn. 109, 117, 252, 411; cf. P.G. XXVIII, 1557 sqq. Bessarion, speaking in the Council of Florence, inferred the tradition of the Greek Church from the teaching of the Latin; since the Greek and Latin Fathers before the ninth century were the members of the same Church, it is antecedently improbable that the Eastern Fathers should have denied a dogma firmly maintained by the Western. Moreover, there are certain considerations which form a direct proof for the belief of the Greek Fathers in the double Procession of the Holy Ghost.
It has been seen that the Creed of Constantinople at first declared only the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father; it was directed against the followers of Macedonius who denied the Procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father. In the East, the omission of Filioque did not lead to any misunderstanding. But conditions were different in Spain after the Goths had renounced Arianism and professed the Catholic faith in the Third Synod of Toledo, 589. It cannot be acertained who first added the Filioque to the Creed; but it appears to be certain that the Creed, with the addition of the Filioque, was first sung in the Spanish Church after the conversion of the Goths. In 796 the Patriarch of Aquileia justified and adopted the same addition at the Synod of Friaul, and in 809 the Council of Aachen appears to have approved of it.
The decrees of this last council were examined by Pope Leo III, who approved of the doctrine conveyed by the Filioque, but gave the advice to omit the expression in the Creed. The practice of adding the Filioque was retained in spite of the papal advice, and in the middle of the eleventh century it had gained a firm foothold in Rome itself. Scholars do not agree as to the exact time of its introduction into Rome, but most assign it to the reign of Benedict VIII (1014-15).
The Catholic doctrine was accepted by the Greek deputies who were present at the Second Council of Florence, in 1439, when the Creed was sung both in Greek and Latin, with the addition of the word Filioque. On each occasion it was hoped that the Patriarch of Constantinople and his subjects had abandoned the state of heresy and schism in which they had been living since the time of Photius, who about 870 found in the Filioque an excuse for throwing off all dependence on Rome. But however sincere the individual Greek bishops may have been, they failed to carry their people with them, and the breach between East and West continues to this day.
It is a matter for surprise that so abstract a subject as the doctrine of the double Procession of the Holy Ghost should have appealed to the imagination of the multitude. But their national feelings had been aroused by the desire of liberation from the rule of the ancient rival of Constantinople; the occasion of lawfully obtaining their desire appeared to present itself in the addition of Filioque to the Creed of Constantinople. Had not Rome overstepped her rights by disobeying the injunction of the Third Council, of Ephesus (431), and of the Fourth, of Chalcedon (451)?
It is true that these councils had forbidden to introduce another faith or another Creed, and had imposed the penalty of deposition on bishops and clerics, and of excommunication on monks and laymen for transgressing this law; but the councils had not forbidden to explain the same faith or to propose the same Creed in a clearer way. Besides, the conciliar decrees affected individual transgressors, as is plain from the sanction added; they did not bind the Church as a body. Finally, the Councils of Lyons and Florence did not require the Greeks to insert the Filioque into the Creed, but only to accept the Catholic doctrine of the double Procession of the Holy Ghost.
this act of trying to define the Nature of the Godhead was like trying to read the Mind of God!
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That’s right Resty...it is...
I read the Mind of God when I read His Word, the Bible...
and theres no effort to defining the nature of the Godhead...
The LORD Jesus Christ is the embodiment of the Godhead..
the LORD Jesus Christ has the only body amongst the Holy Three in One, the Trinity...
God the Father, the First Person of the Trinity is Spirit...
we know that because the LORD Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, the Word of God, the Second Person of the Trinity told us so..
God is Spirit... The LORD Jesus Christ (John 4:24)
God the Son, the Word of God, the Second Person of the Trinity is the only One of the Trinity (or Godhead) to have a body which He received when as God He left His heaven and came down to Earth to become a man and to dwell among us..
For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. Colossians 2:9
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to His own advantage; Instead, he gave up His divine privileges; He took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When He appeared in human form, And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross! Philippians 2:6-8
God the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost, the Third person of the Trinity does not have a body but is Spirit like God the Father
the Holy Spirit who lives in us. 2 Timothy 1:14
Hebrew 5
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
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Did FARMS/FAIR/LSD Inc explain to you why you were to cut and paste that scripture ???
What does it mean to you ???
>> “Only The Lord can restore His Word on earth, through His anointed Prophet, there is no other way!” <<
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He did restore his word through his prophet, his Son, Yeshua, and through his son’s disciple, the Levite Cohen, Matthew.
The ancient Hebrew scriptures, and the gospel written by Matthew in Hebrew, are the sole existing completely uncorrupted words of Yehova so far discovered.
The Book of Mormon, being chiefly plagiarized from the manuscript of an unpublished novel stolen by Joseph Smith from an attic he was hired to clean, and snippets from various parts of the KJV Bible, is in no way the writings of any prophet. This was all revealed long ago by the early Mormon convert, John Ahmanson, in his book “Vor Tids Muhamed.”
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That’s right Resty...it is...
I read the Mind of God when I read His Word, the Bible...
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When one reads the scriptures they are not reading the mind of God, it is God who edifies us!
Again when it comes to restoring scripture a child of God can not of his own, insert his own concept of the Nature of the Godhead, nor is it up to debate which is what took place 300 years afterwards during the Council of Nicene again this topic was not up for debated
Hebrew 5
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
My doing this was not to argue over this but in all logic man can not arbitrary fix this, as to make it fit.
Give it up TN stop trying to justify your ways the Lord told us many times...
Isaiah 55
8 ¶For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Never mind their ability goes no further than directing desperate Mormons to paste obscure Bible verses in the hope that Christians know as little as they do about he Bible and what’s within the covers..
I’ll tell you myself...
Let’s put more of that passage in context..
Hebrews 4:14-5:10
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet He did not sin. Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.
In the same way, Christ did not take on Himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to Him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”
And He says in another place, “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, He offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverent submission.
Son though He was, He learned obedience from what He suffered and, once made perfect, He became the source of Eternal Salvation for all who obey Him and was designated by God to be High Priest in the order of Melchizedek. Hebrews 4:14-5:10
and so now Resty you know because I just told you for the umpteenth time why only the LORD Jesus Christ is a priest after or in the order of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 5:10) you have to be sinless and die on the Cross in order to achieve that title and honor..
No Mormon man has ever done so.
Not Joey Smith , not brigham young, Not Gordie Hinckley, Tommy Monson, not Willard Mitt Romney...and Aaron was not one..
there is no such thing as a Melchizedek priesthood..for anyone other than the LORD Jesus Christ..
so I’ll leave you with this next verse from that passage...
for you and your FARMS/FAIR/LSD Inc buddies..
We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Hebrews 5:11, 12
When one reads the scriptures they are not reading the mind of God,
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Its amazing that you can find your own door...
The Book of Mormon, being chiefly plagiarized from the manuscript of an unpublished novel stolen by Joseph Smith from an attic he was hired to clean, and snippets from various parts of the KJV Bible, is in no way the writings of any prophet. This was all revealed long ago by the early Mormon convert, John Ahmanson, in his book “Vor Tids Muhamed.”
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The Book of Mormon is the Record of the tribe of Joseph and is his children Ephraim and Manassas of course they would have record from the Tribe of Judah before they left Jerusalem they are too are the children of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
The opening chapters in 1 Nephi tell how they got the record and through out the Book of Mormon records of others have gone to the Promise land.
Ezekiel 37
15 ¶The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 ¶And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 ¶And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
>> “The Book of Mormon is the Record of the tribe of Joseph and is his children Ephraim and Manassas” <<
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I know that millions have been led to believe that, but it is false, as John Ahmanson has revealed. He was a witness to the Mormon fraud as it was happening.
Come to Yeshua, and leave the darkness behind.
Isaiah 55
8 ¶For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
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But Resty why did you post that scripture when you also post evidence that you really are not interested in what God thinks ???
Resty god wrote down His thoughts in a Book we call the Bible...
its all there for us to read...
and I do so that I can know the thoughts of God..
its because the thoughts of God are higher than mine that I want to know what they are..
and so I read the Bible..
I have hidden Your word in my heart that I might not sin against You. Psalm 119:11
I delight in Your decrees; I will not forget Your Word. Psalm 119:16
Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path. Psalm 119:105
How sweet are Your Words to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth! Psalm 119:103
Direct my footsteps according to Your Word; let no sin rule over me. Psalm 119:133
The unfolding of Your Words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple. Psalm 119:130
Your word is very pure and precious, Therefore Your servant loves it. Psalm 119:140
My eyes stay open through the watches of the night, that I may meditate on Your Word. Psalm 119:148
I rejoice in Your Word like one who discovers a great treasure. Psalm 119:162
May my tongue sing of Your Word, for all Your commands are righteous. Psalm 119:172
Yes I know the mind and the thoughts of God..
and Resty you can know the thoughts of God for yourself too...
just read the Bible...
When one reads the scriptures they are not reading the mind of God,
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Its amazing that you can find your own door...
***
Making it personal is no answer!
Doc & Cov. 8
1–5, Revelation comes by the power of the Holy Ghost; 6–12, Knowledge of the mysteries of God and the power to translate ancient records come by faith.
1 Oliver Cowdery, verily, verily, I say unto you, that assuredly as the Lord liveth, who is your God and your Redeemer, even so surely shall you receive a knowledge of whatsoever things you shall ask in faith, with an honest heart, believing that you shall receive a knowledge concerning the engravings of old records, which are ancient, which contain those parts of my scripture of which has been spoken by the manifestation of my Spirit.
2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.
3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.
4 Therefore this is thy gift; apply unto it, and blessed art thou, for it shall deliver you out of the hands of your enemies, when, if it were not so, they would slay you and bring your soul to destruction.
5 Oh, remember these words, and keep my commandments. Remember, this is your gift.
John 14
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled,
Isaiah 55
8 ¶For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
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But Resty why did you post that scripture when you also post evidence that you really are not interested in what God thinks ???
Resty god wrote down His thoughts in a Book we call the Bible...
its all there for us to read...
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Yes and there was no such word as Trinity in the Bible, this word Trinity was coin by and first used by Theophilus of Antioch 181 AD.
Theophilus of Antioch (triad a Greek word was the original term) used the word Trinity to explain his personal concept of the of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Doc & Cov. 8:1-5 didn’t come true...Nor did the rest of that 1829 d&c 8 prophecy about Oliver Cowdery and his magic divining rod that he used for “revelations”...
and why are you now jumping to the Mormon use of witchcraft, a practice that God condemns as evil ???
Joey Smith as usual was giving false prophecy that never came about and was later exposed by his book of Mormon “witnesses”..
“While Cowdery returned to the LDS Church before his death, David Whitmer claimed that Cowdery died believing Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet and that his revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants must be rejected:
“I did not say that Oliver Cowdery and John Whitmer had not endorsed the Doctrine and Covenants in 1836. They did endorse it in 1836; I stated that they “came out of their errors (discarded the Doctrine and Covenants), repented of them, and died believing as I do to-day,” and I have the proof to verify my statement. If any one chooses to doubt my word, let them come to my home in Richmond and be satisfied. In the winter of 1848, after Oliver Cowdery had been baptized at Council Bluffs, he came back to Richmond to live. . . . Now, in 1849 the Lord saw fit to manifest unto John Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and myself nearly all the errors in doctrine into which we had been led by the heads of the old church. We were shown that the Book of Doctrine and Covenants contained many doctrines of error, and that it must be laid aside. . . . They were led out of their errors, and are upon record to this effect, rejecting the Book of Doctrine and Covenants.”
David Whitmer, An Address to Believers in The Book of Mormon (Richmond, Mo., 1887), pp. 1-2.
Tanner, Sandra, Salt Lake City Messenger, The Book of Mormon Witnesses, “Too Mean To Mention” November 2011, No. 117
http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no117.htm
Joey Smith and his Mormonism isn’t in the Bible but you seem to have no trouble preaching it from thread to thread...
Meanwhile the Trinity is explained in the Christian Bible whether or not you choose to believe in what God has to say about Himself....
remember dear you were the one who posted in #84 that the thoughts of God were higher than your own...
Isaiah 55
8 ¶For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
You must have dropped the rest of my #89 when you were running with scissors...
its all there for us to read...
and I do so that I can know the thoughts of God..
its because the thoughts of God are higher than mine that I want to know what they are..
and so I read the Bible..
I have hidden Your word in my heart that I might not sin against You. Psalm 119:11
I delight in Your decrees; I will not forget Your Word. Psalm 119:16
Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path. Psalm 119:105
How sweet are Your Words to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth! Psalm 119:103
Direct my footsteps according to Your Word; let no sin rule over me. Psalm 119:133
The unfolding of Your Words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple. Psalm 119:130
Your word is very pure and precious, Therefore Your servant loves it. Psalm 119:140
My eyes stay open through the watches of the night, that I may meditate on Your Word. Psalm 119:148
I rejoice in Your Word like one who discovers a great treasure. Psalm 119:162
May my tongue sing of Your Word, for all Your commands are righteous. Psalm 119:172
Yes I know the mind and the thoughts of God..
and Resty you can know the thoughts of God for yourself too...
just read the Bible...
Sigh...
Temple Recommend question #7:
Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
Poor restornu;
So confused...
Only a lying conman can convince the ignorant that he is a Prophet and that Christianity needed RESTORING.
Guess what!?!
GOD hisself called me to do sumpin'!!!
Boy!
Get me a SWITCH; right NOW!!!
I've TOLD you not to eatin' them that mushyroons you find in the forest!!
Yes, Nana.
Just GIVE UP trying to defend any of your church's teaching like restornu has.
Just wander off in some other direction when faced with FACTS and HISTORY and Quotes.
I would have written a 3 letter word, but it would have gotten pulled.
Besides; it would have been wrong, for hers is handed to her every time she wanders into yet another MORMON themed thread.
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