Filioque (before the Nicene Creed)

New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia ^ | 2009 | Kevin Knight

[restornu]

Filioque

Filioque is a theological formula of great dogmatic and historical importance. On the one hand, it expresses the Procession of the Holy Ghost from both Father and Son as one Principle; on the other, it was the occasion of the Greek schism. Both aspects of the expression need further explanation.

Dogmatic meaning of filioque

The dogma of the double Procession of the Holy Ghost from Father and Son as one Principle is directly opposed to the error that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father, not from the Son. Neither dogma nor error created much difficulty during the course of the first four centuries. Macedonius and his followers, the so-called Pneumatomachi, were condemned by the local Council of Alexandria (362) and by Pope St. Damasus (378) for teaching that the Holy Ghost derives His origin from the Son alone, by creation. If the creed used by the Nestorians, which was composed probably by Theodore of Mopsuestia, and the expressions of Theodoret directed against the ninth anathema by Cyril of Alexandria, deny that the Holy Ghost derives His existence from or through the Son, they probably intend to deny only the creation of the Holy Ghost by or through the Son, inculcating at the same time His Procession from both Father and Son. At any rate, if the double Procession of the Holy Ghost was discussed at all in those earlier times, the controversy was restricted to the East and was of short duration.

The first undoubted denial of the double Procession of the Holy Ghost we find in the seventh century among the heretics of Constantinople when St. Martin I (649-655), in his synodal writing against the Monothelites, employed the expression "Filioque". Nothing is known about the further development of this controversy; it does not seem to have assumed any serious proportions, as the question was not connected with the characteristic teaching of the Monothelites.

In the Western church the first controversy concerning the double Procession of the Holy Ghost was conducted with the envoys of the Emperor Constantine Copronymus, in the Synod of Gentilly near Paris, held in the time of Pepin (767). The synodal Acts and other information do not seem to exist. At the beginning of nineth century, John, a Greek monk of the monastery of St. Sabas, charged the monks of Mt. Olivet with heresy, they had inserted the Filioque into the Creed. In the second half the same century, Photius, the successor of the unjustly deposed Ignatius, Patriarch of Constantinople (858), denied the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son, and opposed the insertion of the Filioque into the Constantinopolitan creed. The same position was maintained towards the end of the tenth century by the Patriarchs Sisinnius and Sergius, and about the middle of the eleventh century by the Patriarch Michael Caerularius, who renewed and completed the Greek schism.

The rejection of the Filioque, or the double Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and Son, and the denial of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff constitute even today the principal errors of the Greek church. While outside the Church doubt as to the double Procession of the Holy Ghost grew into open denial, inside the Church the doctrine of the Filioque was declared to be a dogma of faith in the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), the Second council of Lyons (1274), and the Council of Florence (1438-1445). Thus the Church proposed in a clear and authoritative form the teaching of Sacred Scripture and tradition on the Procession of the Third Person of the Holy Trinity.

As to the Sacred Scripture, the inspired writers call the Holy Ghost the Spirit of the Son (Galatians 4:6), the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), the Spirit of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:19), just as they call Him the Spirit of the Father (Matthew 10:20) and the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 2:11). Hence they attribute to the Holy Ghost the same relation to the Son as to the Father.

Again, according to Sacred Scripture, the Son sends the Holy Ghost (Luke 24:49; John 15:26; 16:7; 20:22; Acts 2:33; Titus 3:6), just as the Father sends the Son (Romans 3:3; etc.), and as the Father sends the Holy Ghost (John 14:26).

Now the "mission" or "sending" of one Divine Person by another does not mean merely that the Person said to be sent assumes a particular character, at the suggestion of Himself in the character of Sender, as the Sabellians maintained; nor does it imply any inferiority in the Person sent, as the Arians taught; but it denotes, according to the teaching of the weightier theologians and Fathers, the Procession of the Person sent from the Person Who sends. Sacred Scripture never presents the Father as being sent by the Son, nor the Son as being sent by the Holy Ghost. The very idea of the term "mission" implies that the person sent goes forth for a certain purpose by the power of the sender, a power exerted on the person sent by way of a physical impulse, or of a command, or of prayer, or finally of production; now, Procession, the analogy of production, is the only manner admissible in God. It follows that the inspired writers present the Holy Ghost as proceeding from the Son, since they present Him as sent by the Son.

Finally, St. John (16:13-15) gives the words of Christ: "What things soever he [the Spirit] shall hear, he shall speak; ...he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you. All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine." Here a double consideration is in place. First, the Son has all things that the Father hath, so that He must resemble the Father in being the Principle from which the Holy Ghost proceeds. Secondly, the Holy Ghost shall receive "of mine" according to the words of the Son; but Procession is the only conceivable way of receiving which does not imply dependence or inferiority. In other words, the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son.

The teaching of Sacred Scripture on the double Procession of the Holy Ghost was faithfully preserved in Christian tradition. Even the Greek Orthodox grant that the Latin Fathers maintain the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son. The great work on the Trinity by Petavius (Lib. VII, cc. iii sqq.) develops the proof of this contention at length. Here we mention only some of the later documents in which the patristic doctrine has been clearly expressed:

• the dogmatic letter of St. Leo I to Turribius, Bishop of Astorga, Epistle 15 (447);
• the so-called Athanasian Creed;
• several councils held at Toledo in the years 447, 589 (III), 675 (XI), 693 (XVI);
• the letter of Pope Hormisdas to the Emperor Justius, Ep. lxxix (521);
• St. Martin I's synodal utterance against the Monothelites, 649-655;
• Pope Adrian I's answer to the Caroline Books, 772-795;
• the Synods of Mérida (666), Braga (675), and Hatfield (680);
• the writing of Pope Leo III (d. 816) to the monks of Jerusalem;
• the letter of Pope Stephen V (d. 891) to the Moravian King Suentopolcus (Suatopluk), Ep. xiii;
• the symbol of Pope Leo IX (d. 1054);
• the Fourth Lateran Council, 1215;
• the Second Council of Lyons, 1274; and the
• Council of Florence, 1439.

Some of the foregoing conciliar documents may be seen in Hefele, "Conciliengeschichte" (2d ed.), III, nn. 109, 117, 252, 411; cf. P.G. XXVIII, 1557 sqq. Bessarion, speaking in the Council of Florence, inferred the tradition of the Greek Church from the teaching of the Latin; since the Greek and Latin Fathers before the ninth century were the members of the same Church, it is antecedently improbable that the Eastern Fathers should have denied a dogma firmly maintained by the Western. Moreover, there are certain considerations which form a direct proof for the belief of the Greek Fathers in the double Procession of the Holy Ghost.

• First, the Greek Fathers enumerate the Divine Persons in the same order as the Latin Fathers; they admit that the Son and the Holy Ghost are logically and ontologically connected in the same way as the Son and Father [St. Basil, Epistle 38; Against Eunomius I.20 and III, sub init.]
• Second, the Greek Fathers establish the same relation between the Son and the Holy Ghost as between the Father and the Son; as the Father is the fountain of the Son, so is the Son the fountain of the Holy Ghost (Athanasius, Ep. ad Serap. I, xix, sqq.; On the Incarnation 9; Orat. iii, adv. Arian., 24; Basil, Against Eunomius V; cf. Gregory of Nazianzus, Oration 43, no. 9).
• Third, passages are not wanting in the writings of the Greek Fathers in which the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son is clearly maintained: Gregory Thaumaturgus, "Expos. fidei sec.", vers. saec. IV, in Rufinus, Hist. Eccl., VII, xxv; Epiphanius, Haer., c. lxii, 4; Gregory of Nyssa, Hom. iii in orat. domin.); Cyril of Alexandria, "Thes.", as. xxxiv; the second canon of synod of forty bishops held in 410 at Seleucia in Mesopotamia; the Arabic versions of the Canons of St. Hippolytus; the Nestorian explanation of the Symbol.

The only Scriptural difficulty deserving our attention is based on the words of Christ as recorded in John 15:26, that the Spirit proceeds from the Father, without mention being made of the Son. But in the first place, it can not be shown that this omission amounts to a denial; in the second place, the omission is only apparent, as in the earlier part of the verse the Son promises to "send" the Spirit. The Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son is not mentioned in the Creed of Constantinople, because this Creed was directed against the Macedonian error against which it sufficed to declare the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father. The ambiguous expressions found in some of the early writers of authority are explained by the principles which apply to the language of the early Fathers generally.

Historical importance of the filioque

It has been seen that the Creed of Constantinople at first declared only the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father; it was directed against the followers of Macedonius who denied the Procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father. In the East, the omission of Filioque did not lead to any misunderstanding. But conditions were different in Spain after the Goths had renounced Arianism and professed the Catholic faith in the Third Synod of Toledo, 589. It cannot be acertained who first added the Filioque to the Creed; but it appears to be certain that the Creed, with the addition of the Filioque, was first sung in the Spanish Church after the conversion of the Goths. In 796 the Patriarch of Aquileia justified and adopted the same addition at the Synod of Friaul, and in 809 the Council of Aachen appears to have approved of it.

The decrees of this last council were examined by Pope Leo III, who approved of the doctrine conveyed by the Filioque, but gave the advice to omit the expression in the Creed. The practice of adding the Filioque was retained in spite of the papal advice, and in the middle of the eleventh century it had gained a firm foothold in Rome itself. Scholars do not agree as to the exact time of its introduction into Rome, but most assign it to the reign of Benedict VIII (1014-15).

The Catholic doctrine was accepted by the Greek deputies who were present at the Second Council of Florence, in 1439, when the Creed was sung both in Greek and Latin, with the addition of the word Filioque. On each occasion it was hoped that the Patriarch of Constantinople and his subjects had abandoned the state of heresy and schism in which they had been living since the time of Photius, who about 870 found in the Filioque an excuse for throwing off all dependence on Rome. But however sincere the individual Greek bishops may have been, they failed to carry their people with them, and the breach between East and West continues to this day.

It is a matter for surprise that so abstract a subject as the doctrine of the double Procession of the Holy Ghost should have appealed to the imagination of the multitude. But their national feelings had been aroused by the desire of liberation from the rule of the ancient rival of Constantinople; the occasion of lawfully obtaining their desire appeared to present itself in the addition of Filioque to the Creed of Constantinople. Had not Rome overstepped her rights by disobeying the injunction of the Third Council, of Ephesus (431), and of the Fourth, of Chalcedon (451)?

It is true that these councils had forbidden to introduce another faith or another Creed, and had imposed the penalty of deposition on bishops and clerics, and of excommunication on monks and laymen for transgressing this law; but the councils had not forbidden to explain the same faith or to propose the same Creed in a clearer way. Besides, the conciliar decrees affected individual transgressors, as is plain from the sanction added; they did not bind the Church as a body. Finally, the Councils of Lyons and Florence did not require the Greeks to insert the Filioque into the Creed, but only to accept the Catholic doctrine of the double Procession of the Holy Ghost.

[restornu]

You are in over your head posting actual Christian information

***

Who are any of you to tell a child of the Lord what they should or should not read or discuss even my faith makes no limits on any thing that is in accord with the things pertaining to the Lord.

Articles of Faithto be
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Those who are honest and have the spirit of the Lord will ponder why the Nature of the Godhead was clarified or defined 300 years afterwards, not only that, there many adjustments made down through histories until 1438.

Well after the discovery of the Printing press in 1453 the people were able to read the Bible so the slite of hand could no longer do it thing...

[restornu]

In all due respect on this issue should have already been a part of the doctrine, which I sure it was during the ancient Church, than after the schism and the dust settle the deck was shuffled and this is what the world came up with.

No matter how one slice or dice this the word of God comes from God, not a group of men trying to figure out this puzzle.

There is no such thing as a debate on the definition on the Lord’s doctrine of the Godhead, as took place during the time of Constantine in 325 AD, that should not have been going on. The word of God is absolute, no one centuries later have a right trying to put humpy dumpy back together again, or unscramble and egg.

Someone or beings had the correct knowledge but it was never going to come to the light of day.

It was not until 1453 that people could even read the Bible in their own home, prior to that time the masses were at the mercy of the celery.

I also believe even though this was not properly settle that in spite what the people did have, the Lord was able to work with those hearts and minds that were malleable to his scriptures.

What it did do, with out a true definition. was to create a stumbling block.

My doing this was not to argue over this but in all logic man can not arbitrary fix this, as to make it fit.

[Elsie]

I agree

[Elsie]

Who are any of you to tell a child of the Lord what they should or should not read ...

Oh, Sweety!

It's not US who tell you this; but your chosen LEADERSHIP that does!!

[HiTech RedNeck]

1958 Mormon Doctrine Book Banned

I have no idea how bad or good this is (I just Googled for Mormon book ban) but again it seems our dear LDS neighbors might be as sensitive as, if not more than, Rome. They've both gone off in odd directions with doctrines, but different odd directions.

The worst departures, however, don't have so much to do with speculative theological minutiae, most of which reflect at least an attempt to glorify God, as with outright denials of the direct salvific capability of Christ.

[Elsie]

 

Remember THIS restornu??

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2021891/posts 

 

 

 

[Elsie]

In all due respect on this issue should have already been a part of the doctrine, which I sure it was during the ancient Church, than after the schism and the dust settle the deck was shuffled and this is what the world came up with.

WHY are you SURE?

[Elsie]

It was not until 1453 that people could even read the Bible in their own home, prior to that time the masses were at the mercy of the celery.

[Elsie]

The word of God is absolute, no one centuries later have a right trying to put humpy dumpy back together again, or unscramble and egg.

Then why don't YOU use the JST instead of the KJV???

[Elsie]

... or unscramble and egg.

Speaking of SCRAMBLED....

 

See some differences between GOD's Word and the Joseph Smith's 'translation'

 

 

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Color coding explanation:

 

Added stuff... Changed stuff... Rearranged stuff... Removed stuff... 

 *(UNDERLINED stuff is the DISTRACTING reference on every tenth word or so that infuses LDS 'scripture' online.)

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JOSEPH SMITH—MATTHEW An extract from the translation of the Bible as revealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet in 1831: Matthew 23: 39 and chapter 24. Jesus foretells the impending destruction of Jerusalem—He also discourses on the second coming of the Son of Man, and the destruction of the wicked. 1 aFor I say unto you, that ye shall not see me henceforth and know that I am he of whom it is written by the prophets, until ye shall say: Blessed is he who bcometh in the name of the Lord, in the clouds of heaven, and all the holy angels with him. Then understood his disciples that he should come again on the earth, after that he was glorified and ccrowned on the right hand of God. 2 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple; and his disciples came to him, for to ahear him, saying: Master, show us concerning the buildings of the temple, as thou hast said—They shall be thrown down, and left unto you desolate. 3 And Jesus said unto them: See ye not all these things, and do ye not understand them? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here, upon this temple, one astone upon another that shall not be thrown down. 4 And Jesus left them, and went upon the Mount of Olives. And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be which thou hast said concerning the destruction of the temple, and the Jews; and what is the asign of thy bcoming, and of the cend of the world, or the destruction of the dwicked, which is the end of the world? 5 And Jesus answered, and said unto them: Take heed that no man deceive you; 6 For many shall come in my name, saying—I am aChrist—and shall deceive many; 7 Then shall they deliver you up to be aafflicted, and shall kill you, and ye shall be bhated of all nations, for my name’s sake; 8 And then shall many be aoffended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another; 9 And many afalse prophets shall arise, and shall deceive many; 10 And because iniquity shall abound, the alove of many shall wax cold; 11 But he that remaineth asteadfast and is not overcome, the same shall be saved. 12 When you, therefore, shall see the aabomination of bdesolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, concerning the destruction of cJerusalem, then you shall stand in the dholy place; whoso readeth let him understand. 13 Then let them who are in Judea flee into the amountains; 14 Let him who is on the housetop flee, and not return to take anything out of his house; 15 Neither let him who is in the field return back to take his clothes; 16 And wo unto them that are with achild, and unto them that give suck in those days; 17 Therefore, pray ye the Lord that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; 18 For then, in those days, shall be great atribulation on the bJews, and upon the inhabitants of cJerusalem, such as was not before sent upon Israel, of God, since the beginning of their kingdom until this time; no, nor ever shall be sent again upon Israel. 19 All things which have befallen them are only the beginning of the sorrows which shall come upon them. 20 And except those days should be shortened, there should none of their flesh be asaved; but for the elect’s sake, according to the bcovenant, those days shall be shortened. 21 Behold, these things I have spoken unto you concerning the Jews; and again, after the tribulation of those days which shall come upon Jerusalem, if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe him not; 22 For in those days there shall also arise false aChrists, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch, that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are the elect according to the covenant. 23 Behold, I speak these things unto you for the aelect’s sake; and you also shall hear of bwars, and rumors of wars; see that ye be not troubled, for all I have told you must come to pass; but the end is not yet. 24 Behold, I have told you before; 25 Wherefore, if they shall say unto you: Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: Behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not; 26 For as the light of the morning cometh out of the aeast, and shineth even unto the west, and covereth the whole earth, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. 27 And now I show unto you a parable. Behold, wheresoever the acarcass is, there will the eagles be bgathered together; so likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth. 28 And they shall hear of wars, and rumors of wars. 29 Behold I speak for mine elect’s sake; for nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be afamines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 30 And again, because iniquity shall abound, the love of men shall wax acold; but he that shall not be overcome, the same shall be saved. 31 And again, this aGospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all bnations, and then shall the end come, or the destruction of the wicked; 32 And again shall the aabomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, be fulfilled. 33 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the asun shall be bdarkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the cstars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 34 Verily, I say unto you, this ageneration, in which these things shall be shown forth, shall not pass away until all I have told you shall be fulfilled. 35 Although, the days will come, that heaven and earth shall pass away; yet my awords shall not pass away, but all shall be fulfilled. 36 And, as I said before, after the atribulation of those days, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then shall all the tribes of the earth bmourn; and they shall see the cSon of Man dcoming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory; 37 And whoso atreasureth up my word, shall not be deceived, for the Son of Man shall bcome, and he shall send his cangels before him with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the dremainder of his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 38 Now learn a parable of the afig-tree—When its branches are yet tender, and it begins to put forth leaves, you know that summer is nigh at hand; 39 So likewise, mine elect, when they shall see all these things, they shall know that he is near, even at the doors; 40 But of that day, and hour, no one aknoweth; no, not the angels of God in heaven, but my Father only. 41 But as it was in the days of aNoah, so it shall be also at the coming of the Son of Man; 42 For it shall be with them, as it was in the days which were before the aflood; for until the day that Noah entered into the ark they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage; 43 And aknew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. 44 Then shall be fulfilled that which is written, that in the alast days, two shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other bleft; 45 Two shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left; 46 And what I say unto one, I say unto all men; awatch, therefore, for you know not at what hour your Lord doth come. 47 But know this, if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to have been broken up, but would have been ready. 48 Therefore be ye also aready, for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of Man cometh. 49 Who, then, is a afaithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 50 Blessed is that aservant whom his lord, when he cometh, shall find so doing; and verily I say unto you, he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 51 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart: My lord adelayeth his coming, 52 And shall begin to smite his fellow-servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, 53 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 54 And shall cut him asunder, and shall appoint him his portion with the hypocrites; there shall be weeping and agnashing of teeth. 55 And thus cometh the aend of the wicked, according to the prophecy of Moses, saying: They shall be cut off from among the people; but the end of the earth is not yet, but by and by. The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints © 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved. Rights and use information. Privacy policy.

KJV Matthew 23:38-39 24:1-51 39. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. 1. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8. All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25. Behold, I have told you before. 26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33. So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49. And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. King James Version of the Holy Bible Public domain

[Utah Binger]

We all carried that banned book. Used to read the Great and Abominable parts with glee as we tried to convert the world.

If McConkie said it was true, by golly it was TRUE.

What a self aggrandizing dip wad he was. But aren't they all?

[Utah Binger]

Mormon Doctrine Available Here

I think they are all first editions. The revised versions are not nearly so juicy. Should have said Mormonism's "HATE Propaganda" version.

[HiTech RedNeck]

What a self aggrandizing dip wad he was. But aren't they all?

If faith in the actual Christ exists among such people, they are also fighting hard against Him with all this speculation. That isn't exactly a recipe for blessings. Yes, such a conflicted state can occur, but if the actual Christ has a foothold by faith, He will also eventually win.

A buddy of mine, a conventional evangelical Christian, was approached by Mormon missionaries. He did talk with them and shared his faith with them, and they were fascinated. They mentioned having encountered some frightening figures that reportedly pried their eyes open in the name of the faith. I know what that means, of course -- demonic activity. Now they won't quit bugging my buddy, though I encourage my buddy from time to time to give them a face full of straight gospel.

[Tennessee Nana]

in 1453 the people were able to read the Bible
__________________________________________

No Resty dear, people still did not know how to read..

Gutenberg did not teach people how to read the Bible...

He just gave them he opportunity to own one...

if they had the means...

In 1453 even some of the nobility who owned a Bible couldn’t read..

later in 1830-1877 not all Mormons could read their book of Mormon if they had one..

Many of the Mormons were either couldn’t read or they didn’t read English, they were mostly from foreign countries and not American born..
(Although Mormonism is considered an American religion, it was started with people Joey Smith and Brigham young brought from Europe to make war on the American government and American Christians..

Meanwhile the children of the Mormon overlords in SLC are indeed told “what they should or should not read or discuss” either in print or the Internet..

at present the “children of the Mormon overlords” have been ordered not to read about or discuss the upcoming March 14th arrest of their crooked theocratic dictator, Thomas S Monson for criminal financial fraud...

Nobody in these threads told the Mormons not to read about their high mucky muck overlord’s crimes...

we are busy exposing the truth to the Mormons and are URGING them to find out about it and read all they can..

Yes someone is telling you not to read certain things but its not us...

Meanwhile Resty personally Ive been telling you for years to read the Bible for yourself and not to just cut and paste unrelated Bible scriptures that the ignorant FARMS/FAIR/LSD Inc give you to post here...

Do you even read the stuff you post ???

Here on Feb 19, 2014 I’ll say again to you...

Read the Bible for yourself, Resty..

all of the Bible not just the parts your Mormon overlords tell you will disprove the truth of the Trinity or the nature of God or the virginity of Mary, or that the blood of Jesus that He shed when He died on the Cross covers every sin..

Just because the Mormons deny the Crucifixion does not make it so...

It really happened...theres several accounts in the Bible...

Please read the Bible for yourself...

[HiTech RedNeck]

... I mean, the “they” are the Mormons. Not the creepy figures. My buddy did meet Satan once, a few decades ago. Satan asked him to give his soul for rock and roll (no kidding, exactly in that manner). My buddy refused. Now my buddy and I are busy composing Christian songs by which we hope the gospel mission might be furthered in the world. Usually I write the lyrics and he writes the music. God is working between us in ways that are quite boldly spiritual. With one song, I managed to write what my buddy confirmed was his salvation story, which he hadn’t given me too many particulars about, but I already knew in other ways that he was believing on Christ for salvation of his eternal life.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Almighty Love(my buddy's salvation story)

[Tennessee Nana]

in 1453 the people were able to read the Bible
__________________________________________

speaking of being able to read...

later in 1830-1877 not all Mormons could read their book of Mormon if they had one..

Many of the Mormons were either couldn’t read or they didn’t read English, they were mostly from foreign countries and not American born..

When Brigham Young moved some of his followers to Utah Territory in Mexico to escape the decency laws of America he set up schools ...

Schools to teach people to read Nana ???

No schools to teach them to DANCE. Young was a party animal..his parties and balls were like Roman orgies, a good place for Young and his fellow Playboys to meet new young girls to add to his stable...

Young was more interested in the bodies of his slaves err followers and not their spirits...

Young told them what to believe...theres no record of Young ever telling the Mormons to read the Bible for themselves..

[Utah Binger]

[HiTech RedNeck]

Not exactly the most savory story.

It sounde from Mormon tracts that it started out idealistically enough, but Smith just ended up creating “one more denomination” (something he reportedly hated) and at that, a polluted and confused one. And which has demonic phenomena to this day. I’m leery about Mitt having run for president... it’s like it was a giveaway to Obama and it wasn’t just his wishy washy politics. Obama got just the right bump in the right swing states to make it, and I don’t think even Democrat cheaters are that good on their own. More typically a Democrat cheating coup takes a long dragged out game of Calvinball.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Bog means bog in Norwegian, according to Google Translate. Those Norwegians don’t mince words.