According to Scripture (Sola Scriptura)

... I really do enjoy reading all the things you have gotten into and share them here.

It is a regular LOVE fest!

You two are counting dancing angels while the BIG heresy in this thread continues to jabber away...

I see you've engaged her. Thanks!

THAT sure didn’t come out right!

Oh, me too!

Why, if they DIDN’T have them; I’d not be wasting all this time showing where they ain’t BIBLICAL!

You wrote:
Af_vet, I have been reading some our your past threads in an attempt to understand why you hate traditional Christianity so much. At first I thought you worked for the Roman Catholic Church, considering your vicious hatred of Martin Luther, and your strong defense of Catholicism. But, then, you have also demonstrated a hatred for Calvin. But that didn’t click since Calvin seemed to mostly hate the Roman Catholic Church, in that most or all of his commentaries, no matter how unrelated, seem to have a papal comment, or two. Then I thought you were a paid member of Foxman’s anti-Christian gang; you know, the fellow who has such a hatred for Christianity that his life’s work has been to destroy it, along with the morals of our society. But now, I see that you hate any Christian that doesn’t support dual-covenant theology. Considering your knowledge of the New Testament, I know you know that what I have written to you is biblical. Yet, over and over again, you have shown a strong determination to bully me into censoring the parts of the scripture that you do not like. I also noticed you doing that to other Freepers. Therefore, my only conclusion is you are a Pharisaic Jew pretending to be a Christian, and like any good Pharisee, you play the race card at every opportunity. The problem this time is, I cannot be anti-semitic. Let’s just say, off the biblical record, it is in my blood. Get a life, and leave Christians alone. Philip

After I had written:
af_vet_1981 to PhilipFreneau 1. Were 6 million Jews, descended physically from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob murdered in the Holocaust by wicked hands ? 2. Does your church support disinvestment from the nation of Israel regathered in the land of Israel, and whose government is currently headed by a Jew, Benjamin Netanyahu ? 3. When you get a blood transfusion, do/will you say your blood type is the same as everyone else ? 4. Do you use the men's or women's facilities, whichever has the shorter line ? 5. Do you tell your master/supervisor that you don't take orders/commands ? Yeah, try that in any branch of the Armed Forces. We live in a physical dimension, with the promise of a spiritual inheritance which is not less real. Yet the physical still remains, with its divisions and, we hope, trust, and believe by faith, its promises. Those promises belong to Israel, to the Jews, and include the Gentiles. The problem with your doctrine is it teaches you that everything has been fulfilled and completed. Replacement theology and preterism are its fruit, not to mention a lot of Jews martyred for being Jews. It is why the muslimin hate Israel; the very existence of a physical, real nation of Israel in our generation invalidates their replacement theology where they (believe they) have replaced Israel, and so it must be removed from the face of the earth. Dare I write the crusader phrase ? And so the Reformed Presbyterian schismatics/rebels will not lift a finger to help Israel as they too believe the current nation of Jews returned to the Land of Israel (do you even still call it that today ?) are illegitimate. Replacement theology and Preterism in a nutshell

Were 6 million Jews, descended physically from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob murdered in the Holocaust by wicked hands ? => Yes
Does your church support disinvestment from the nation of Israel regathered in the land of Israel, and whose government is currently headed by a Jew, Benjamin Netanyahu ? => Yes
When you get a blood transfusion, do/will you say your blood type is the same as everyone else ? => No, you know there is a difference and it would be improper to act as if there were not.
Do you use the men's or women's facilities, whichever has the shorter line ? => No, you know there is a difference and it would be improper to act as if there were not.
Do you tell your master/supervisor that you don't take orders/commands ? No, you know there is a difference and it would be improper to act as if there were not.

I don't think I should respond to your personal attack to correct your false allegations. I forgive you. I would say I'm on the fence as to whether to view Replacement Theology/Preterism as an outright cult or heresy as it does not deny the basics. It does seem a poisonous fruit. It is notable that the Catholic Church, the Fundamentalists, and most Evangelicals deny it. And we have this:
This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

and this:

Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

I'm not directing this personally at you, and I wish both you and your extended family peace rather than strife, but just to address your comment "The problem this time is, I cannot be anti-semitic. Let’s just say, off the biblical record, it is in my blood. " lest others think that just because someone has some descent from the Jewish people they cannot do horrible things to other Jews in an antisemitic systematic way. Self-hating Jew is a term used to allege that a Jewish person holds antisemitic beliefs or engages in antisemitic actions. ... Wasserstein goes on to say that self-hating Jews, "afflicted by some form of anti-Semitism were not so much haters of themselves as haters of 'other' Jews."

>>Where is the beef?<<

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Who was he? And when was that seven your covenant confirmed? You haven’t accounted for the full 490 years.

“And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.” ─Zechariah 12:3

Your claim is that “that day” happened in 70AD. Which people that came against Israel were “cut in pieces? Isn’t Israel more a “burdensome stone” now than it was back then?

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

At what time since Jesus ascended into heaven has all of Israel said “Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord” which He said would happen prior to his return? And if Israel is no longer a separate entity that God will deal with how can those words of Jesus be pertinent in your view of end times?

If the "resurrection" happened in 70 AD, why are the bodies of the apostles and Christians left in the grave?

Is that enough “beef” for you to chew on or do you need more?

>>But since you are into questions, how about explaining the seven churches in Asia.<<

It’s pretty easy really. Each of the churches were representative of error that can creep in other than the church at Philadelphia which remained true. Of course with all prophesy there are levels of fulfillment as was explained to you upthread.

CB, when “debating” with a mormon, you must be aware of how terms and words are used and defined...

Mormonism is not “another” gospel per se, because the mormons claim to have “restored” the supposed original gospel. So you see, a mormon will have you chasing your tail because you are trying to use the scriptures in their proper context but the mormon already has their own twisted and convoluted meaning...

The same gospel they believe that states temple rites are essential for salvation but none have ever been able to submit any proof whatsoever that this is so...isn’t that right restornu?

Just because I quit the abomination of mormonism doesn’t mean I “hate” anyone...I’m sorry that the LDS “leadership” in SLC keeps promoting that canard...if it were so, I guess I would have divorced my wife and disowned her and our son.

Talking points that are deeply embedded in the tbm psyche...such a shame they have such a deep and terrible hold.

Strawman, and I’m surprised and disappointed this canard was even posted.

No one here has said they aren’t...if a mormon is going to argue about their doctrine, they had better be ready for a healthy dose of rebuttal...

>>>You two are counting dancing angels while the BIG heresy in this thread continues to jabber away...<<<

LOL. So true...

>>>These are the only places that antichrist is mentioned.<<<

Exactly. It is not a “person,” but a doctrine; and a common one.

Philip

>>>Like the CITIES he destroyed in AMERICA?<<<

LOL. No. I am talking about all the natural disasters that would take place if the Revelation were a literal prophecy. If this is true:

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." (John 3:17)

Then why would he destroy it? And would he not be making David a liar?

"Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever." (Ps 104:1-5 KJV)

Philip

Here is an example right out of the BoM that gives a pretty accurate and not so subtle description of the mormon christ...he's OT style vengeful.

In the Book of Mormon, Jesus brought death and destruction with him to the Cross. In 3 Nephi, Chapters 8 and 9, it details the events testifying of Christ's crucifixion. It describes the desolation of the great city of Zarahemla by fire, and the city of Moroni "did sink into the sea and the inhabitants thereof were drowned... the earth was carried up upon the city of Mornihah...there was great and terrible destruction in the land southward......terrible destruction in the land northward....the highways were broken up....many great and noble cities were sunk and many burned and many shaken till the buildings thereof had fallen to the earth.....all these great and terrible things were done in the space of three hours."

Here are links to the Official LdS BoM chapters that detail these events:

3 Nephi 8

3 Nephi 9

3 Nephi, Chapter 9, tells of further wrath as the Lord also destroyed the cities and inhabitants of Gigal, Onihah, Mocum, Jerusalem, Gadiandi, Gadiomnah, Jacob, Gimgimmo, Jacobugath, Laman, Josh, Gad, and Kishkumen. (a total of 16 major cities) Who did all this killing to testify of our Lord's atonement on Calvary?

3 Nephi 9:15 reveals the murderer of approximately 2 million innocent inhabitants of the Book of Mormon lands, "Behold, I am Jesus Christ the son of God. I created the heavens and the earth and all things that in them are." He adds, (in verse 21), "behold, I have come unto the world to bring redemption unto the world to save the world from sin."

I guess the easiest way was to kill almost every living creature; at least the vast majority of that portion of his "other sheep have I." This Jesus was a god of wrath, exercising some form of Old Testament Judgment by the one who was supposed to be the end of the law.

>> How do you know it was supposed to literally dry up?<<

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Looks pretty clear to me. Sometimes allegory is obvious or symbolism is evident. Other times no symbolism or allegory need be applied.

>> Do you believe the beast will rise up out of the sea?<<

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Where did you think the “sea of people” phrase came from?

>> Do you believe a third part of the trees will burn up?<<

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Looks rather clear to me.

>> Do you believe a great star, named Wormwood, will fall from heaven and contaminate a third part of the waters?<<

You really need to do a study of the references to wormwood in scripture. Deuteronomy 29:18-19, Proverb 5:3-5, Jeremiah 9:13-16, Jeremiah 23:14-16, Lamentations 3:14-16, Amos 5:6-8

Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded (blew it's trump, the sixth trump), and there fell a great star from heaven (Angels are called stars and there was no greater star than Satan), burning as it were a lamp (Trying to be "the light"), and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; (As stated in Revelation 17:15 the waters are the people, the toungs and the nations. Not drinking water! The third part of the people were made spiritually dead, not physically dead.) 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood (Wormwood is a Hebrew idiom for bitterness, also another name for Satan.): and the third part of the waters became wormwood (Again, after being exposed to Satan and his flood of lies it made the third part of the waters (people) bitter.); and many men died (spiritually) of the waters, because they were made bitter (deceived by Satan).

The Bible doesn't say in Revelation 8:11 that the people died because they were poisoned, but because they became bitter (wormwood), a spiritual death, not a physical death.

>>If you take the other parts of the prophecy literally, shouldn’t you also take that one literally?<<

We are “literally” told that the sea represents people.

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

No original copies? There are no original copies of Homer's Iliad or Odyssey. No original Aeneid of Virgil, or Tacitus’ Histories, Herodotus’ Histories. Yet what Historian tosses them because we have no original manuscripts? NONE! The copies are considered just as valid as the originals.

We do have a very ancient copy of Isaiah from the Dead Sea Scrolls which is exactly the same as the modern translations.

YOU also have THE ORIGINAL Book of Abraham! Let's see how it compares to Joseph Smith's “translation”!

Joseph Smith's fabrication...from the official LDS web page.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/1?lang=eng

1 In the land of the aChaldeans, at the residence of my fathers, I, bAbraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of cresidence;

2 And, finding there was greater ahappiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of brighteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great cknowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many dnations, a prince of peace, and edesiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a fHigh Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

3 It was aconferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the bfirstborn, or the first man, who is cAdam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.

4 I sought for mine aappointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the bfathers concerning the seed.

5 My afathers, having turned from their righteousness, and from the holy commandments which the Lord their God had given unto them, unto the worshiping of the bgods of the cheathen, utterly refused to hearken to my voice;

NOW! From the REAL Book of Abraham, translated by REAL Egyptologists..

Verses 1-5

http://www.bookofabraham.com/boamathie/BOA_6.html

(I/1) [”Osiris, the god’s father], prophet of Amon-Re, King of the Gods, prophet of Min who slaughters his enemies, prophet of Khonsu, the [one who exercises] authority in Thebes,

(I/2) [. . .] . . . Hor, the justified, son of the similarly titled overseer of secrets and purifier of the god, Osorwer, the justified, born by the [housewife and sistrum-player of ]

(I/3) [Amon]-Re, Taikhibit, the justified! May your ba-spirit live among them, and may you be buried on the west [of Thebes].”

(I/4) [”O Anubis(?),51 . . .] justification(?).

(I/5) [May you give to him] a good and splendid burial on the west of Thebes as on the mountains of Ma[nu](?).”
[Osiris shall be towed in]to the great lake of Khonsu,
and likewise [the Osiris Hor, the justified,] born of Taikhibit, the justified,
after his two arms have been [placed] at his heart, while
the Breathing Document, being what
is written on its interior and exterior, shall be wrapped in royal linen and placed (under) his left arm in the midst of his heart. The remainder of his
wrapping shall be made over it. As for the one for whom this book is made,
he thus breathes like the ba-spirit[s] of the gods, forever and ever.

I post about the history of the Latter-Day Saints movement. This may include beliefs currently or previously stated by Presidents or General Authorities of the church to be doctrine, or changes in that doctrine.

I have no problem at all with others who rebut Mormon doctrine or Mormons who rebut that, but I try not to argue doctrine.

My serious problem is with documents and history disappearing down the rabbit hole.

>>Do you believe the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and are living, will die; and the third part of the ships will be destroyed?<<

We used to live aboard and had a hurricane destroy 99% of the boats in our marina including the yacht we lived on and our fishing boat. The dead fish from oil and pollution floating around was astonishing. I’ve seen the devastation that one storm called Ike can do.

>>Do you believe an angel will chain the devil with a literal chain?<<

Do you believe the “chain of command” is a “literal chain”? How about the “chain of custody”? Is that a literal chain? God is still and always will be the head of the chain of command.

>>Do you believe the four angels loosed from the Euphrates will slay a third part of men?<<

Revelation 9:14 saying to the sixth messenger who had the trumpet, 'Loose the four messengers who are bound at the great river Euphrates;'

First of all the Greek word is at not in the river. Second, angels throughout scripture are depicted as directing or controlling kings and leaders. Remember the river Euphrates being dried up? That allows those leaders controlled by Satan’s angels to advance and destroy.

>> Do you belive John prophesied before many peoples, nations, tongues and kings at the age of 95?<<

How many peoples and nations do you think the book of Revelation has been read by and in?

>> Do you believe fire proceedeth out of the mouth of the two witnesses?<<

Jeremiah 5:14 Therefore, thus said Jehovah, God of Hosts, Because of your speaking this word, Lo, I am making My words in thy mouth become fire, And this people wood, and it hath devoured them.

Jeremiah 23:29 Is it not thus? My word is as a fire,

It’s God’s words “like fire” that come out of their mouth. We are to be refined by the fire of God’s word.

Scripture always interprets scripture if one studies under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.