Posted on 01/23/2014 9:29:40 PM PST by NKP_Vet
1. Best One-Sentence Summary: I am convinced that the Catholic Church conforms much more closely to all of the biblical data, offers the only coherent view of the history of Christianity (i.e., Christian, apostolic Tradition), and possesses the most profound and sublime Christian morality, spirituality, social ethic, and philosophy.
2. Alternate: I am a Catholic because I sincerely believe, by virtue of much cumulative evidence, that Catholicism is true, and that the Catholic Church is the visible Church divinely-established by our Lord Jesus, against which the gates of hell cannot and will not prevail (Mt 16:18), thereby possessing an authority to which I feel bound in Christian duty to submit.
3. 2nd Alternate: I left Protestantism because it was seriously deficient in its interpretation of the Bible (e.g., "faith alone" and many other "Catholic" doctrines - see evidences below), inconsistently selective in its espousal of various Catholic Traditions (e.g., the Canon of the Bible), inadequate in its ecclesiology, lacking a sensible view of Christian history (e.g., "Scripture alone"), compromised morally (e.g., contraception, divorce), and unbiblically schismatic, anarchical, and relativistic. I don't therefore believe that Protestantism is all bad (not by a long shot), but these are some of the major deficiencies I eventually saw as fatal to the "theory" of Protestantism, over against Catholicism. All Catholics must regard baptized, Nicene, Chalcedonian Protestants as Christians.
4. Catholicism isn't formally divided and sectarian (Jn 17:20-23; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10-13).
5. Catholic unity makes Christianity and Jesus more believable to the world (Jn 17:23).
6. Catholicism, because of its unified, complete, fully supernatural Christian vision, mitigates against secularization and humanism.
7. Catholicism avoids an unbiblical individualism which undermines Christian community (e.g., 1 Cor 12:25-26).
8. Catholicism avoids theological relativism, by means of dogmatic certainty and the centrality of the papacy.
(Excerpt) Read more at ourcatholicfaith.org ...
Could you please either link the Luther quote or post his entire statement?
Eph.2:8, KJV
“Why so you follow a book that has King James’ name on it. What did this King James see in the Holy Bible that would make him think he had the power to change the word of God. Heresy!”
Resorting to invective to avoid the questions? First the passage posted was not changed by King James. Where does such an assertion come from? So same questions apply as I will use the Catholic NABRE for the same passage:
Luke 24:44-49 NABRE
He said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and in the prophets and psalms must be fulfilled.”
Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures. And he said to them, “Thus it is written that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance, for the forgiveness of sins, would be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. And [behold] I am sending the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”
Your surrender is accepted.
And the below man was raised a Presbyterian and became a minister. He came to the exact opposite conclusion that you did.
http://www.amazon.com/Rome-Sweet-Home-Journey-Catholicism/dp/0898704782
The well-known and very popular Catholic couple, Scott and Kimberly Hahn, have been constantly travelling and speaking all over North America for the last few years about their conversion to the Catholic Church. Now these two outstanding Catholic apologists tell in their own words about the incredible spiritual journey that led them to embrace Catholicism. Scott Hahn was a Presbyterian minister, the top student in his seminary class, a brilliant Scripture scholar, and militantly anti-Catholic ... until he reluctantly began to discover that his “enemy” had all the right answers. Kimberly, also a top-notch theology student in the seminary, is the daughter of a well-known Protestant minister, and went through a tremendous “dark night of the soul” after Scott converted to Catholicism. Their conversion story and love for the Church has captured the hearts and minds of thousands of lukewarm Catholics and brought them back into an active participation in the Church. They have also influenced countless conversions to Catholicism among their friends and others who have heard their powerful testimony
I am down to point #12. The author still has not stated that he **knows** the Catholic Church is true because he has the witness of the Holy Ghost telling him it is so.
So far....everything is in his own head.
Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
The pagan indoctrination by the Catholic Church blinds those that are unwilling to see.
Then wouldn't an alternative be to keep quiet and pass out "Beatitude Cards"? Honestly, what this post proves is that Catholicism is a works based religion that has fallen into Pelagianism.
I cannot imagine the early church fathers teaching such nonsense. But then they were a bunch of country bumpkins and ignorant to the ways of the world. My, we've come a long way baby.
That’s nothing. Judas was taught by Jesus and still showed he was not one of His.
#1 “Social ethic”
#12 universal equality
As a historian I am sure you appreciate context.
“We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all.”—Luther as quoted by Vlad.
Context?
“But what is now our defense? And what is the ground on which we can hold our own against such offense and continue to defy those people? It is nothing else than the masterly statement St. Paul employs in Rom. 9:7: “Not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants.” Not all who bear the name are Israelites; or, as the saying goes: “Not all who carry long knives are cooks.” Thus not all who lay claim to the title “church” are the church. There is often a great difference between the name and the reality. The name is general. All are called God’s people, children of Abraham, Christ’s disciples and members; but this does not mean that they all are what the name signifies. For the name “church” includes many scoundrels and rascals who refused to obey God’s Word and acted contrary to it. Yet they were called heirs and successors of the holy patriarchs, priests, and prophets. To be sure, they had God’s Law and promise, the temple, and the priesthood. In fact, they should have been God’s people; but they practiced idolatry so freely under the cloak of the name “church” that God was forced to say: “This shall no longer be My temple and priesthood. My people shall no longer be My people. But to those who are not My people it shall be said: ‘You are sons of the living God’ ” (Hos. 1:10; 2:23).” [LW 24:304].
And continuing:
“Thus we are also compelled to say: “I believe and am sure that the Christian Church has remained even in the papacy. On the other hand, I know that most of the papists are not the Christian Church, even though they give everyone the impression that they are. Today our popes, cardinals, and bishops are not God’s apostles and bishops; they are the devil’s. And their people are not God’s people; they are the devil’s. And yet some of the papists are true Christians, even though they, too, have been led astray, as Christ foretold in Matt. 24:24. But by the grace of God and with His help they have been preserved in a wonderful manner.” [LW 24:305].
“In the meantime we adhere to the distinction made here by Christ and do not regard as Christendom those who do not hold truly and absolutely to what Christ taught, gave, and ordained, no matter how great, holy, and learned they may be. We tell them that they are the devil’s church. On the other hand, we want to acknowledge and honor as the true bride of Christ those who remain faithful to His pure Word and have no other comfort for their hearts than this Savior, whom they have received and confessed in Baptism and in whose name they have partaken of the Sacrament. These are the true church. It is not found in only one place, as, for example, under the pope; but it exists over the entire earth wherever Christians are found. Outwardly they may be scattered here and there, but they meet in the words of the Creed: “I believe in God the Father Almighty, and in Jesus Christ, our Lord, who was born, suffered, and died for us on the cross.” In like manner, they pray: “Our Father who art in heaven.” They share the same Spirit, Word, and Sacrament. They all lead the same holy and blessed life, each one according to his calling, whether father, mother, master, servant, etc. Thus whatever we preach, believe, and live, this they all preach, believe, and live. Physically separated and scattered here and there throughout the wide world, we are nevertheless gathered and united in Christ.”[LW 24:309].
And to show there is no shock over this boatbums posted this some time back
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2907866/posts?page=25#25
Then why pray to any saints? How do you know Mary made it? Paul? Peter? This is a seemingly very noble statement but inconsistent with the thousands of saints the Catholics have on hand.
By what standard? The New Testament differs from the Old. The teachings of Jesus differ from the teachings of Moses.
The teachings of Moses is not any different than the teachings of Jesus. Our Lord even stated this:
Joh_5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.
The early fathers knew that only through our Lord Jesus was there salvation. They taught nothing else.
If you have never known Christ, but have lived a Godly live, as stated in the beatitutes, there is a chance you can enter the Kingdom of Heaven. In the end only God knows who will make the cut. Why in that so hard for protestants to understand? Did all the people that lived before Abraham go to hell when they died? Do all buddists go to hell that are totally ignorant of the Christian faith? All the hindus, all the muslims? If a Christian or any other faith is exposed to Christianity and willfully rejects Jesus Christ, he’s on a fast train to hell. Pretty cut and dry.
I am not sure if that is a question, but I am certain all the holy men of old are saved. When Jesus said the following he barely avoided being stoned:"
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58)
The Jews understand that Christ was claiming to be the Lord; and they considered his words blasphemy. Little did they know that it was Christ speaking to Moses out of the burning bush.
This verse mentions the heavenly destination of the patriarchs and prophets:
"But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." (Luke 13:27-28)
This one declares the prophets, along with the apostles, to be the foundation of the holy temple:
"Now therefore ye [Jews and Gentiles] are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Eph 2:19-22)
Philip
No, because Christ raised the bar higher than ever with the Beatitudes. If no one could be saved by keeping the letter of the Law, then certainly no one could ever be saved keeping the INTENT of the Law.
God's standard is absolute perfection. ONE sin is all that it takes to condemn someone.
Even if someone kept the Law and lived a perfect life except for ONE sin, they would still be condemned.
James 2:8-11 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
This logic is nothing more than Socinianism and what is being denied is the atonement of Christ. I have posted an article to help you in straightening out your theology.
If the Luther Haters actually took the time to read the actual quote they would see it is a scathing condemnation against the Roman Catholic Church.
If I get justice, I will end up in Hell. I don't want justice. I want mercy. There was a time on earth, where EVERYONE knew the truth, but most turned their backs on God. Their descendants are the ones you say have no fault of their own. There is not one person on earth with no fault of their own. Ignorance is not bliss. If it were, no one should preach the gospel. If we preach the truth, and they reject it, then we are complicit in their eternal doom. The truth is sometimes not easy to accept. Some may not think it is fair, but I remember the potter and the clay. God sets things up His way, and we have no right to challenge His right to to that. There may be many points we agree on, but I think not on the plan of salvation. Regards to you and yours.
Redleghunter is right. This quote is floating everywhere on the Internet but apparently there’s no source for it. It’s an Urban quote. But that doesn’t stop our Catholic friends from using it.
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