Posted on 01/23/2014 9:29:40 PM PST by NKP_Vet
1. Best One-Sentence Summary: I am convinced that the Catholic Church conforms much more closely to all of the biblical data, offers the only coherent view of the history of Christianity (i.e., Christian, apostolic Tradition), and possesses the most profound and sublime Christian morality, spirituality, social ethic, and philosophy.
2. Alternate: I am a Catholic because I sincerely believe, by virtue of much cumulative evidence, that Catholicism is true, and that the Catholic Church is the visible Church divinely-established by our Lord Jesus, against which the gates of hell cannot and will not prevail (Mt 16:18), thereby possessing an authority to which I feel bound in Christian duty to submit.
3. 2nd Alternate: I left Protestantism because it was seriously deficient in its interpretation of the Bible (e.g., "faith alone" and many other "Catholic" doctrines - see evidences below), inconsistently selective in its espousal of various Catholic Traditions (e.g., the Canon of the Bible), inadequate in its ecclesiology, lacking a sensible view of Christian history (e.g., "Scripture alone"), compromised morally (e.g., contraception, divorce), and unbiblically schismatic, anarchical, and relativistic. I don't therefore believe that Protestantism is all bad (not by a long shot), but these are some of the major deficiencies I eventually saw as fatal to the "theory" of Protestantism, over against Catholicism. All Catholics must regard baptized, Nicene, Chalcedonian Protestants as Christians.
4. Catholicism isn't formally divided and sectarian (Jn 17:20-23; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10-13).
5. Catholic unity makes Christianity and Jesus more believable to the world (Jn 17:23).
6. Catholicism, because of its unified, complete, fully supernatural Christian vision, mitigates against secularization and humanism.
7. Catholicism avoids an unbiblical individualism which undermines Christian community (e.g., 1 Cor 12:25-26).
8. Catholicism avoids theological relativism, by means of dogmatic certainty and the centrality of the papacy.
(Excerpt) Read more at ourcatholicfaith.org ...
“So why was he adding to the original text when it clearly states to not do so?”
Luther was a liar. What did you expect him to do? He distorted the Bible to serve his purposes. He cut books out of the Bible - both from the Old and New testaments - which he didn’t believe in or which didn’t serve his purposes. Again, Luther was a liar.
Ditto. :)
Individuals or all stripes have a direct line to God.
Jesus taught us that in the Lord's Prayer.
There is ONE mediator between God and Ma, and that is Jesus Christ, not some self-appointed or church-appointed stand in that they CLAIM represents God to man.
I’m right here, soldiering on for Christ.
“TO be deep in Scripture is to cease to be Catholic.”
Not according to those who knew it best - the Early Church Fathers.
As Luther said, “We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all.”
In reference to John 6:37, regarding those the Father "gave" Christ. I believe Jesus was referring to his disciples, only. Let me explain:
"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:9-12)
He lost Judas, but Judas was not given to him; but rather was an instrument of another fulfillment. The next passage shows the distinction between the disciples and other Christians. First Jesus Speaks of his disciples, whom were chosen by God to serve him while he was on earth; and then those, like us, who confess our belief in him:
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (John 17:20-21)
In this next passage he implies the ones God gave him will tell the world about him, which they did: they wrote the New Testament, and they preached the gospel to "all the world:"
"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world." (John 17:23-24)
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Mat 28:18-20)
"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Col 1:23)
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." (Rom 10:17-18)
Of course, their notion of "all the world" was the Roman Empire. Notice the last verse in the John quote: John 17:24. He said, "I will that they. . . be with me where I am." And they are with him, forever. They serve, along with the prophets, as the foundation of the Holy Temple:
"Now therefore ye [Jews and Gentiles] are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Eph 2:19-22)
The disciples also serve as the foundations of the Holy City, New Jerusalem:
"And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God . . . And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Rev 21:10, 14)
And they didn't have to wait long. The holy city New Jerusalem was resting on mount Sion at the time the book of Hebrews was written (notice "ye are come", rather than "ye will come".)
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant . . . " (Heb 12:22-24)
They also serve as judges over the twelve tribes of Israel:
"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Mat 19:28)
That promise was fulfilled in the first resurrection:
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them . . . and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev 20:4-6)
And they were, without a doubt, holy. John wrote of his election to be a king and priest.
"And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (Rev 1:6)
Paul wrote of it, also, explaining that they--the chosen ones--were holy and without fault, having been among the first to trust Christ:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will . . . Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself. . . That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ." (Eph 1:4-5, 8-9, 12)
I believe they were part of the 144,000, for the reasons highlighted:
"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads . . . These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." (Rev 14:1, 4-5)
The disciples truly were without fault, and they did follow the Lamb wherever he went. But, virgins? This is what Jesus said about that:
" . . . they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world [that age], and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." (Luke 20:35-36)
It appears all in the first resurrection (the firstfruits) were unmarried. There are no such restrictions for the second resurrection, rather, marriage is honourable in all (Heb 13:4.) Therefore, it becomes even more convincing that the 144,000 virgins, that were sealed as God's servants in Rev 7, were his disciples, the prophets, and many of the Saints from the early Church (the firstfruits of the Holy Spirit from the Day of Pentecost): all from the twelve tribes of Israel. That certainly gives new meaning to these passages:
"For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches." (Rom 11:16)
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of [heavenly mount] Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Rom 11:24-27)
"And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in [heavenly mount] Zion, and he that remaineth in [New] Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in [New] Jerusalem:" (Isa 4:3)
Remember this passage in relation to the promise of the Day of Pentecost?
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:38-39)
Compare that to these:
"For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." (Rev 7:17)
"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." (Rev 22:1)
"O Lord, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living waters." (Jer 17:13)
Only a remnant were saved, as written; but they truly were God's chosen people, and are serving forever as the foundations of our Church, and as priests to the high priest, Jesus, in his holy temple on heavenly mount Sion. The rest? Moses explained what happened to them:
"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet [Jesus] shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." (Acts 3:22-23, also Deut 18:18-19)
Philip
You will find that with just a little research the "consensus on theological issues" has changed over the years, decades, centuries. Catholic doctrine has changed. But don't take my word for it. All you have to do is look back at some of these posts and see how the Church is defending Muslims being saved. Do you honestly believe that ANY of the early church fathers believed such nonsense?
The consensus back then was that there was salvation in no one else. Today the consensus is, well......maybe not.....
Why so you follow a book that has King James’ name on it. What did this King James see in the Holy Bible that would make him think he had the power to change the word of God. Heresy!
"...By way of summary, the development of doctrine is a progress in the understanding of Christ’s teachings, in perfect conformity to the content of tradition, guarded and promulgated by the Church’s Magisterium."
Luther didn’t know any better.
He had been fed Catholic propaganda his whole life as a Catholic priest.
And besides, just because he says so, does not mean it’s a fact. the fact is the JEWS are responsible for giving us the Word of God.
They are responsible for the entire OT, which was penned centuries before Catholicism ever existed, and the writers of almost all the NT, excepting Luke and Acts were penned by Jews.
And besides, just because he says so, does not mean it's a fact. the fact is the JEWS are responsible for giving us the Word of God.
They are responsible for the entire OT, which was penned centuries before Catholicism ever existed, and the writers of almost all the NT, excepting Luke and Acts were penned by Jews.
Romans 3:1-2 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.
Baloney. A rose by any other name.
changed/ developed .... Semantics
It's still the same thing, just repackaged for the gullible.
Up to about 1970 the democrats were the socially conservative party in America. Most republicans could have cared less about abortion. Republicans gave us Roe v. Wade. When the South was solidly democrat do you think for one minute that Southerners were pro-abortion, anti-2nd amendment? Not hardly. When the democrats became the party of forced busing and abortion on demand and did everything in their power to encroach on states rights, the South began voting republican. But speaking specifically of abortion, the democrats and republicans are complicit in the murder of some 55,000,000 children since Roe v. Wade. Neither party had did a thing to stop the slaughter.
That’s totally backwards from scripture. I understand that the RCC needs desperately for that to be true to somehow back up their claim of “meritorious grace” as if somehow man merits grace. That attitude and belief is totally contrary to what scripture teaches. It’s through and because of God’s grace that we can even have faith. It is then through that God given faith by His grace that we are saved. Thus, it is the faith that saves.
There are no scriptures relating works with Grace other than the Finished Work of Christ Jesus. I noticed you snuck in all the key words of faith, Grace and works then tagged James 2:24 in there.
I would say accurate theology is not based on a verse or a few verses.
But in the case of James 2, he is clearly providing instruction to those proclaiming to be believers in Christ Jesus. He is not on Mars Hill reasoning with pagans presenting the Gospel; nor is James teaching doctrine as we see in Romans and Hebrews (and other places). No James epistle is discipleship 101, exhortation and what we could call catechism for the young already proclaimed in baptism. We note this “tone” in the topic of the passage which is “dead faith.” It is an interesting use of words given how could one be in Christ Jesus if they have “dead” faith? A sobering issue brother James brings up here. An issue or topic not found alone in James but also Peter, Paul and John where they exhort others to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith.
Was this what you wanted to discuss or just do dueling verses?
I would also offer the question...If works and faith is the formula for salvation, then how much of the equation is works? Faith? Or are works the fruits of saving faith?
“The Catholic Faith is a gift from Almighty God and I will not have you polluting it! Get out!”
~ Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
Catholics have always been aligned with the liberal part of the democrats, the unions and big city bosses, and FDR etc, just as they are today.
Catholics are majority pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, democrat voters.
The democrat party is doing everything it can to continue and maximize the importation of Catholic voters.
“That’s totally backwards from scripture.”
Nope. Faith leads to saving grace.
As I posted from another site:
In one important salvation text, the Apostle Paul uses prepositions to relate grace, faith, and salvation; “For by grace you have been saved through faith” (Ephesians 2:8). Salvation results from two things: grace and faith. So what is the role that each plays? The answer is found in the prepositions “by” and “through.”
The first preposition — “by” — concerns God’s grace; Paul says we are saved “by grace.” This prepositional phrase is constructed in the ancient language of the New Testament by use of the Greek dative case to signify agency. “By grace” means “by the agency of grace.”
This answers the question: Who saves us? God saves us by his grace! Paul has insisted that we “were dead” in our “trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1), so that we are not able to do anything to initiate our salvation. “God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ — by grace you have been saved” (Eph. 2:4-5).
So what, then, is the role of faith? To answer this, Paul continues, “Through faith” (Eph. 2:8), that is, faith “in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:7). The key preposition for faith is “through,” which refers to the means or instrumentality by which we are saved.
We are saved by God’s grace (grace is the ground and agency of our salvation) through faith, which is the means by which we receive the gift of salvation. Faith is viewed as that way by which God’s gracious gift of salvation is received — through our faith — the way water flows through a pipe. http://www.sharonherald.com/religion/x1208368437/By-grace-through-faith-or-why-prepositions-matter-in-Bible
I in no way deny the reality of prevenient grace. But if someone has no faith in Christ, then he wouldn’t even be coming to Him for forgiveness. Conversion presupposes faith. If you don’t believe in Christ, you won’t call on Him.
In reference to John 6:37, regarding those the Father "gave" Christ. I believe Jesus was referring to his disciples, only.
Please examine John 6:37 within context:
Joh 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Our Lord does not appear to be talking about just His selected 12 disciples. In context he is talking about anyone who comes to Him will not hunger nor thirst.
We could get into a discussion of whether John 17 is directed to the disciples or to us. However, that would be like getting into a discussion of whether Corinthian is directed to a set group along with Romans, Timothy, Titus, etc. I'd feel like I was the NSA reading someone's email. Midway it is clear that our Lord is talking about everyone when He states:
Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me.
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