Posted on 01/23/2014 9:29:40 PM PST by NKP_Vet
1. Best One-Sentence Summary: I am convinced that the Catholic Church conforms much more closely to all of the biblical data, offers the only coherent view of the history of Christianity (i.e., Christian, apostolic Tradition), and possesses the most profound and sublime Christian morality, spirituality, social ethic, and philosophy.
2. Alternate: I am a Catholic because I sincerely believe, by virtue of much cumulative evidence, that Catholicism is true, and that the Catholic Church is the visible Church divinely-established by our Lord Jesus, against which the gates of hell cannot and will not prevail (Mt 16:18), thereby possessing an authority to which I feel bound in Christian duty to submit.
3. 2nd Alternate: I left Protestantism because it was seriously deficient in its interpretation of the Bible (e.g., "faith alone" and many other "Catholic" doctrines - see evidences below), inconsistently selective in its espousal of various Catholic Traditions (e.g., the Canon of the Bible), inadequate in its ecclesiology, lacking a sensible view of Christian history (e.g., "Scripture alone"), compromised morally (e.g., contraception, divorce), and unbiblically schismatic, anarchical, and relativistic. I don't therefore believe that Protestantism is all bad (not by a long shot), but these are some of the major deficiencies I eventually saw as fatal to the "theory" of Protestantism, over against Catholicism. All Catholics must regard baptized, Nicene, Chalcedonian Protestants as Christians.
4. Catholicism isn't formally divided and sectarian (Jn 17:20-23; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10-13).
5. Catholic unity makes Christianity and Jesus more believable to the world (Jn 17:23).
6. Catholicism, because of its unified, complete, fully supernatural Christian vision, mitigates against secularization and humanism.
7. Catholicism avoids an unbiblical individualism which undermines Christian community (e.g., 1 Cor 12:25-26).
8. Catholicism avoids theological relativism, by means of dogmatic certainty and the centrality of the papacy.
(Excerpt) Read more at ourcatholicfaith.org ...
“18 Protestant churches (esp. evangelicals), are far too often guilty of putting their pastors on too high of a pedestal. In effect, every pastor becomes a “pope,” to varying degrees (some are “super-popes”). Because of this, evangelical congregations often experience a severe crisis and/or split up when a pastor leaves, thus proving that their philosophy is overly man-centered, rather than God-centered.”
This one point throws the remaining points into question. I don’t know of many evangelical churches which raises one pastor on a pedestal. In most Evangelical churches with pastors there are elders as well. Then again the evangelical churches I am familiar with have elders/overseers and one of the many elders, usually the most mature in faith, serves as the pastor. So no ring rules them all. In churches where there is one pastor they still answer to the elders.
So my impression is the author of the article is using the megachurch model for his generalizations.
As we all do. I don’t have a man in a booth that comes and tells me I am forgiven. He is just as sinful as I am. We are all without sin. Thus, only Jesus Christ can forgive sin. Not some man behind a curtain. Would you trust some man behind a curtain to say, “Okay, Bill, you are forgiven. Go and sin no more.” Yet, you will sin. And he, the man behind the curtain, HAS NOT AUTHORITY to tell you you are forgiven. He does not have the authority to forgive my sin. I put that in Christ’s hands only. He made that clear in the Scriptures that HE was the ONLY way.
So say Catholics now but there is no proof of that.
Which of my comments are you referring to?
Why bother? No one’s claiming the Church Fathers were individually infallible. It’s their consensus on theological issues that has guided the development of doctrine.
The same reason the Christian west lost the Crusades is what is currently happening now in the war on jihadism. They ran out of money, knights and their kingdoms back home were crumbling.
“And he, the man behind the curtain, HAS NOT AUTHORITY to tell you you are forgiven. He does not have the authority to forgive my sin.”
Christ gave that authority to the Church (John 20:19-23).
Do the Muslims believe in the Real Presence?
Was not this the promise of Real Presence?:
John 14:13-21 KJV
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
bump
Christ came here and died to save our souls, not to endorse a bureaucratic human institution
“I believe that is called a “red-herring” argument.”
Incorrect. What I posted is called a “valid point”. If you’re going to claim there was no hierarchy in the NT you had better be prepared to deal with simple, valid points that show there was a hierarchy in the NT. The fact that Stephen was ONLY a deacon, but James was an Apostle, shows there was a hierarchy. It’s just that simple.
“The pope speaks with the voice of men.”
So you claim.
“James spake as he was moved by the Holy Spirit he received on the day of Pentecost. Big difference!”
So a pope can’t be moved by the Holy Spirit? And the Holy Spirit doesn’t guide the Church?
It’s an interesting amalgamation of two different passages in different epistles and two different apostles. I thought only fundamentalists did such things:)
“That’s not what Ephesians 2:8 says. It says that we receive faith by grace but it’s the faith that saves as I showed from scripture in my previous post.”
No. Faith leads to saving grace. I realize that many Protestant Freepers suffer from government educations, poor reading comprehension, and general ignorance, but thankfully not all Protestants have fallen into the same trap:
In one important salvation text, the Apostle Paul uses prepositions to relate grace, faith, and salvation; “For by grace you have been saved through faith” (Ephesians 2:8). Salvation results from two things: grace and faith. So what is the role that each plays? The answer is found in the prepositions “by” and “through.”
The first preposition — “by” — concerns God’s grace; Paul says we are saved “by grace.” This prepositional phrase is constructed in the ancient language of the New Testament by use of the Greek dative case to signify agency. “By grace” means “by the agency of grace.”
This answers the question: Who saves us? God saves us by his grace! Paul has insisted that we “were dead” in our “trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1), so that we are not able to do anything to initiate our salvation. “God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ — by grace you have been saved” (Eph. 2:4-5).
So what, then, is the role of faith? To answer this, Paul continues, “Through faith” (Eph. 2:8), that is, faith “in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:7). The key preposition for faith is “through,” which refers to the means or instrumentality by which we are saved.
We are saved by God’s grace (grace is the ground and agency of our salvation) through faith, which is the means by which we receive the gift of salvation. Faith is viewed as that way by which God’s gracious gift of salvation is received — through our faith — the way water flows through a pipe. http://www.sharonherald.com/religion/x1208368437/By-grace-through-faith-or-why-prepositions-matter-in-Bible
New International Version
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
New Living Translation
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
English Standard Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
King James Bible
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
International Standard Version
For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God
NET Bible
For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For it is by his grace that we have been saved through faith, and this faith was not from you, but it is the gift of God,
GOD’S WORD® Translation
God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.
Jubilee Bible 2000
For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God,
King James 2000 Bible
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
American King James Version
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
American Standard Version
for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Douay-Rheims Bible
For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;
Darby Bible Translation
For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God’s gift:
English Revised Version
for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Webster’s Bible Translation
For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Weymouth New Testament
For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God’s gift, and is not on the ground of merit—
World English Bible
for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Young’s Literal Translation
for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you — of God the gift,
Having said all of that, I do not doubt for a moment that we receive a sort of prevenient grace from God to have faith in the first place.
if I recall Christ did battle with this his own bureaucratic religious institution of the time call the Pharisees that also contended they were the only ones that spoke for God ....we seem to have our own neo Pharisees here
or neo religious legalist rulers.... take your pick
A little more to it than just Muslims believing in God and going to heaven. Now for the truth.
***************
As we have seen, God introduced salvation to the world through his chosen people, the Jews. God’s revelation to the Jews found its fulfillment in Christ, the Messiah, who established the Catholic Church. The grace necessary for salvation continues to come from Christ, through his Church. Those who innocently do not know and embrace this might still attain salvation but those who knowingly and willingly choose to reject it, reject salvation on God’s terms.
The Catechism (once again quoting Lumen Gentium) summarizes all this as follows:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846)
“I should mention that there is a reason this is a big deal to me. When you tell people who are not christian that you are a catholic, protestant, baptist, etc., they pidgeon hole you into some “quaint” organization.”
Only a moron would sum up the Catholic Church as quaint. If someone is a moron, it really doesn’t matter what word you use.
“But when you say you are a “Christian”, they tend to take it more seriously. If they are strongly anti-Christian, they bristle, while if you are a “baptist”, they see it as quaint.”
Again, only a moron would sum up the Catholic Church as quaint.
“It’s why “they” will often ask me, after I say I am a Christian, “what church are you a member of”. I won’t let them drill down any further or, conversely, dilute the point. I go to a church near my house that is filled with Christians. That is all they get from me.”
So you don’t simply tell them the truth - that you attend a Baptist church?
“Same with Churches.”
Not mine.
I don't wish to minimize Peter's role in the early church, but James appears to have been head of the church. He headed up the Jerusalem Council.
” I guess it’s like going to MIT engineering school and saying you are not really an MIT student, per-se. Rather, you are an engineering student first. What school you go to is not all that relevant as long as they have a good engineering program. So would not relate to MIT so much as relate to being an engineering student. What school I go to is relevant regarding the quality of the school, and that’s about it.”
Your analogy makes no sense. If you attend MIT, you are a student at MIT. If someone asks you where you attend college the answer is MIT. If someone asks you if you study engineering, and you do, the answer is yes. Those are two different questions.
If you agree with the teachings of the Baptists and attend a Baptist church, you’re a Baptist. You don’t agree with the Baptists but still attend their church, then you have other problems.
“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.” John 6:53-56
This is what you have to believe to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Pretty simple. Jesus didn’t mince any words.
“Jesus didn’t *SEND* His church into the world, He is building His church.”
No, He sent it and is building it too. The very term “apostle” tells us the Church was sent.
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