Posted on 01/23/2014 2:18:07 PM PST by Gamecock
I was recently asked to outline some of the major differences between the Presbyterian Church in the USA (PCUSA) and my own denomination the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) and I came up with the following 13 point list:
1) The PCA does not ordain women to either of the offices in the church (Teaching/Ruling Elder, Deacon). The PCUSA by contrast ordains women to both offices.
2) The PCA affirms that the Bible is inerrant and infallible in all that it teaches. The PCUSA does not.
3) The PCA repudiates abortion and considers it a violation of the sixth commandment. The PCUSA believes, there should be no limits on access to abortions, there should be public funding of abortions, and that there should be limits placed on people who demonstrate against abortion.
4) The PCA is against homosexual behavior and same sex marriage and believes both are sins. The PCUSA does not consider homosexuality to be a sin, ordains practicing homosexuals and came within 30 votes of giving the go ahead to same sex marriage ceremonies in the church. Their next General Assembly (GA) will probably do so.
5) The PCA is against divorce except in cases of adultery or desertion. The PCUSA by contrast allows for no-fault divorce and remarriage.
6) The PCA has a constitution consisting of the Westminster Standards and Book of Church Order. All church officers must subscribe to these documents as their Confession of Faith. Teaching against the doctrines contained in these documents or violating them could result in trial and deposition from office.
By contrast, the PCUSA has a “Book of Confessions” containing all of the major Reformed Confessions, and some modern confessions of faith which change or even deny things contained in these confessions. They are viewed more as a series of general guidelines or suggestions that do not bind the conscience of officers in any way. PCUSA church officers routinely teach contrary to the doctrines contained in these documents.
7) The PCA is explicitly Reformed in its theology. Someone denying Calvinism would have an extremely hard time being ordained in the PCA. By contrast, the theology of PCUSA congregations varies widely from church to church and can cover a spectrum from de facto Unitarian Universalism to Neo-Orthodoxy to soft Arminianism. Very few PCUSA congregations are explicitly Calvinistic in their teaching and preaching.
8) The PCA is explicitly evangelistic in its belief that Jesus Christ is “the way, the truth, and the life” and that “No one comes to the Father except through [Him]” as well as its desire to see all people come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Whereas in the PCUSA evangelism is much less popular and often either non-existent or repudiated in the manner of influential PCUSA Pastor Rev. Randall K. Bush who stated recently: “As of this point, the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been preached to all the corners of the world, so knock it off…. Once the evangelical notion of the church can be turned down for a moment, the wisdom of other faiths can finally speak.”
9) The PCA is committed to a principle of voluntary association and all PCA congregations own their own property. Additionally all giving to the administration and permanent committees of the PCA is voluntary. By contrast the property of PCUSA congregations is “regarded as held in trust for the benefit of the PC(USA).” This makes the dissolution of the denominational bond much more difficult in the PCUSA and can sometimes mean a congregation must leave without their church building.
10) While the PCA is gradually centralizing power, the PCA was originally intended to be a “grass roots” denomination and power is still vested largely in Presbyteries in the PCA. By contrast, in the PCUSA, power is much more centralized in the administration and General Assembly.
11) While the PCA is gradually becoming tolerant towards the teaching of theistic evolution, Creationism is still the doctrine held and confessed by most PCA pastors. By contrast, in the PCUSA, evolution is widely accepted.
12) While the PCA is gradually becoming more open to being involved in national and international politics, particularly through its membership in the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE), they generally hesitate to take stands on issues that do not clearly fall under the oversight of the church. The PCUSA, on the other hand, routinely takes stands on a host of political issues ranging from immigration to increased funding for public schools to condemning big tobacco to divestment from Israel.
13) (Addendum Regarding Worship) – There used to be significant theological differences between the PCA’s and PCUSA’s theology of worship. These difference still exist on paper even though they no longer exist in practice. The PCA confesses that all of our worship should be directed only by the Bible, while the PCUSA states that worship should be an amalgam of Bible, culture, feeling, and tradition.
In 1988 when George H. W. Bush was running against Dukakis. omeone (maybe my MIL) sent us a subscription to The Presbyterian Survey which had both party platforms printed right beside the church's position on each issue. Even then, it was very pro-choice, pro-gay, and pro-women pastors (which was unusual at the time). I was truly shocked and realized then that I did not believe in the same things as the denomination to which I had belonged since the age of 14!
Although these issues do not touch the small local church such as the one to which I belonged at the time, I have never felt myself to be Presbyterian since then. I now go to a Methodist Church. I still do not agree with everything that goes on there, but it is a far cry from the PCUSA!
Do you honestly think the majority of Catholics know the difference between the two?
Best you check out the Methodist’s beliefs, then. The United Methodist Church is as, if not more, liberal than the PCUSA.
It's not the commandments we will be judged by, aimhigh. It's Paul's gospel. According to GOd, that is. Perhaps you should spend a few minutes finding out what that gospel is. Since you WILL be judged by it. God said it. Not me.
Ridiculous:
Matthew 22:36-40Moreover:
“Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
1 John 2:1-3; 3:2-11; 3:18-24
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. Now by this we may be sure that we know him, if we obey his commandments.
Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we will be has not yet been revealed. What we do know is this: when he is revealed, we will be like him, for we will see him as he is. And all who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Everyone who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born of God do not sin, because God’s seed abides in them; they cannot sin, because they have been born of God. The children of God and the children of the devil are revealed in this way: all who do not do what is right are not from God, nor are those who do not love their brothers and sisters. For this is the message you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
Little children, let us love, not in word or speech, but in truth and action. And by this we will know that we are from the truth and will reassure our hearts before him whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have boldness before God; and we receive from him whatever we ask, because we obey his commandments and do what pleases him. And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. All who obey his commandments abide in him, and he abides in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit that he has given us.
I knew that the PCUSA had started ordaining gays a year or two ago when the Presbyterian church down the road put tape over the part of their sign that said “A PCUSA Congregation”, but I didn’t know how split the two denominations were on just about everything.
Its good to know that at least one of the two is staying faithful to what’s right.
BTW, I’m a Methodist too.
Yes, I agree it would be ridiculous. IF you were Israel. But you aren’t. Do you even know when the Gentiles were saved? And who was their Apostle? And actually, it DOES matter.
As someone whose membership was in the PCUSA* until about two years ago, I think you will be waiting a looong time for a rebutal from the PCUSA side.
*Our congregation split from the PCUSA to join the Evangelical Presbyterian Church at that time for most of these same reasons. We did manage to escape PCUSA with our property...
How many people are we talking about in each Presbyterian sect? Thousands, millions? Just curious.
>>*Our congregation split from the PCUSA to join the Evangelical Presbyterian Church at that time for most of these same reasons. We did manage to escape PCUSA with our property...
The PCUSA church down the road did the same thing when the gay pastor thing passed.
Depends on if they use the Roman Catholic methodology of “Once a Roman Catholic, Always A Roman Catholic.”
Certainly by the penning of Acts 17; which was before the death of James — AD 62 or AD 69.
Which means the top end being about 30 years after the death of Christ — or, if you want to look at the Old Testament Rahab the Harlot and Ruth the Moabitess provide examples of [presumably] saved people. (Rahab is mentioned in the "Hall of Faith" in Hebrews.)
And who was their Apostle?
Paul claimed that title; though Thomas is reputed to have gone all the way to India (I doubt there were many Jews there).
Peter had experiences with gentiles being saved, too.
Most importantly, Jesus himself commissioned them to go to the whole world with word of what he has done.
We saw the trend some years ago but getting the congregation to get on the same page took some time, and then the process of getting free from PCUSA took time.. So far in this area two congregations have managed to leave, the first that succeeded had to pay an extortion fee of 10% of the value of their property to be able to keep it. (Oops, sorry... PCUSA classified it as a 'tithe'.. but my statement is more correct.)
Our congregation was a bit more fortunate in that we have to pay the equivalent of five year's worth of 'per capita' into a local missions program. (Per capita is a fee paid to the Presbytery on a per-member basis that is supposedly used for 'missions'. We objected that due to our widely separate views the missions that the presbytery might donate to would not necessarily be those that we as a congregation would support. We did not want our money going to the presbytery unless we could specify its use, but they were not thrilled with that idea. They 'allowed' us to donate to local missions of our choosing.)
There are two other churches in this area that are trying to/in the process of exiting PCUSA. One is seeking affiliation with PCA, and the other with the EPC. The latter is embroiled in a legal battle to keep their property... I don't know the current progress of either attempt.
I hope that down south there you have Methodist ministers that John Wesley would claim as brothers but up in these parts unfortunately, most Methodist churches are liberal social clubs...
So...How many then?
How should I know?
“Paul claimed that title”??? God GAVE him that title. As far as the rest of your post, a good read through Ephesians, Chapter 2 would be a big help. Why did Christ say He was not sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel? When did the new covenant go into effect? And who was it made with? Just reading Scripture will do no good unless it is compared Scripture with Scripture and rightly divided according to GOD’S COMMAND. 2 Tim. 2:15. That is, if you care to be approved unto God, as a workman who needs not to be ashamed when you stand before Him. That is HIS promise to us believers.
You commented on the subject, thus I assume you had some idea.
>>I hope that down south there you have Methodist ministers that John Wesley would claim as brothers but up in these parts unfortunately, most Methodist churches are liberal social clubs...
We have some pastors who place the gospel above the social gospel, but we also have our leftists. Although not nearly as many as you find in the north.
Not on homosexuality - the African delegates swatted down the last attempt by the US Methodists on that.
Many officers are allowed exception to parts of the Standards. Common are those who allow for looser observance of the Lord's Day. In addition, it's not uncommon to find violations of the Second Commandment with purported 'pictures' of Jesus.
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