The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

ArticleSeen.com ^ | Aug-28-2011 | Steve-O

[Elsie]

Or so their official writings say.

Head exploding alert!!

THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS SECTION 49:18-19     18 And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God; 19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS SECTION 89:12-13     12 Yea, aflesh also of bbeasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used csparingly;   13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be aused, only in times of winter, or of cold, or bfamine.

[Colofornian]

...when we in the end we believe that our Salvation comes through Jesus Christ...

Simple question here, Restornu: Can a non-Mormon be reconciled with Heavenly Father and live with Him forever minus taking part in the covenants & rituals offered up by the Mormon church?

[Uri’el-2012]

Where is this preserved Hebrew NT?

I'm glad you asked the question.

Each Hebrew letter has a numerical value,
thus each verse has a value
and each scroll has a value.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[Elsie]

Since 1952, the Lds church has sent out about a million missionaries...[Lds has boasted of over a million in its entire history; the largest swath have come in the last 60 years]. They work 70-hour weeks. That's a LOT of "apostasy" mongering...especially given the 80,000 Lds missionaries out & about daily.

The Rules

1. Learn and obey all missionary rules.
2. Keep your thoughts, words, and actions in harmony with the gospel message.
3. Read only books, magazines, and other material authorized by the Church.
4. Don't debate or argue.
5. Center your mind on your mission.
6. Dress conservatively. Elders: white shirts, conservative ties, and business suits. Sisters: conservative colors and skirts that cover your knees. No floor-length skirts or dresses.
7. Cut your hair regularly.
8. Keep your hair clean and neatly combed at all times in the approved style.
9. Be neat and clean.
10. Bathe frequently.
11. Use deodorant.
12. Polish your shoes.
13. Iron your shirt and business suit.
14. Arise at 6:30 A.M.
15. Study for 2 hours every morning.
16. Proselytize for 10 hours between 9:30 A.M. and 9:30 P.M.
17. Turn off your lights at 10:30 P.M.
18. Exercise regularly.
19. Write in your journal regularly.
20. Follow the "Missionary Gospel Study Program" (31157) for your personal study.
21. Regularly study the Missionary Guide and the Discussions.
22. Attend Sunday priesthood or Relief Society meetings, Sunday School, and sacrament meeting.
23. Attend the general session of Stake Conference.
24. Attend general conference broadcasts if available.
25. Avoid all other church meetings unless you have a special assignment or are brining an investigator.
26. Proselytize as much as possible on weekends and holidays because this is when you'll find people home.
27. End your preparation day at 6:00 P.M. and proselytize from 6:00 P.M. to 9:30 P.M.
28. Wear your missionary uniform in public on preparation day while not engaged in recreational activities.
29. Arise at 6:30 on preparation day and study for 2 hours from the approved books.
30. Take care of your physical preparation for the week on preparation day: wash your clothes, clean your apartment, wash your car, get your haircut, and shop for groceries.
31. Write to your parents every week on preparation day.
32. Write less frequently to your siblings, friends, and acquaintances.
33. Don't communicate with any friends or acquaintances that are within or close to your mission boundaries, except as a part of official mission business.
34. Plan safe, wholesome, and uplifting activities for preparation day.
35. Stay with your companion during all activities.
36. Do not go on road trips.
37. Do not leave your assigned area without permission
38. Do not watch television.
39. Do not view unauthorized videocassettes.
40. Do not listen to the radio.
41. Do not listen to unauthorized audiocassettes or CD’s.
42. Do not participate in musical groups.
43. Do not participate in athletic teams.
44. Do not sponsor athletic teams.
45. Do not engage in contact sports.
46. Do not engage in water sports.
47. Do not engage in winter sports.
48. Do not engage in motorcycling.
49. Do not engage in horseback riding.
50. Do not engage in mountain climbing.
51. Do not embark on a private boat.
52. Do not embark in a private airplane.
53. Do not handle firearms.
54. Do not handle explosives.
55. Do not swim.
56. Do not play full court basketball.
57. Do not play basketball in leagues.
58. Do not play basketball in tournaments.
59. You may play half-court basketball.
60. Never be alone.
61. Seek advice from your mission president if your companion is "having difficulties".
62. Be loyal to your companion.
63. Ask your mission president for help if your companion doesn’t obey the rules.
64. Pray with your companion every day.
65. Study with your companion every day.
66. Plan your work with your companion every day.
67. Take time at least once a week for companionship inventory.
68. Seek to be one in spirit and purpose and help each other succeed.
69. Always address your companion as Elder or Sister.
70. Sleep in the same bedroom as your companion.
71. Do not sleep in the same bed as your companion.
72. Do not arise before your companion.
73. Do not retire after your companion. (apparently, being together is more important than getting the correct amount of sleep that your unique body requires.)
74. Frequently study with your companion the Missionary Guide section on companions.
75. Never be alone with anyone of the opposite sex.
76. Never associate inappropriately with anyone of the opposite sex (conversely, they don't mention whether or not it is against the rules to associate inappropriately with anyone of the same sex).
77. Do not flirt.
78. Do not date.
79. Do not communicate via phone or letter with anyone of the opposite sex living within or near mission boundaries.
80. Do not visit a single or divorced person of the opposite sex unless accompanied by a couple or another adult member of your sex.
81. Try to teach single investigators in a member’s home or have missionaries of the same sex teach them.
82. Always follow the above rules, even if the situation seems harmless.
83. Use the commitment pattern to get referrals from members.
84. Keep your dinner visits with member briefs and during the customary dinner hour in the area.
85. Remember to say thank you to those who feed you.
86. Visit members and nonmembers only at appropriate times.
87. Do not counsel or give medical treatment.
88. Do not stay in the homes of people when they are on vacation.
89. Only write letters to family members and friends at home.
90. Do not telephone parents
91. Do not telephone relatives.
92. Do not telephone friends.
93. Do not telephone girlfriends.
94. Contact your mission president in case of an emergency.
95. Take problems and questions to your mission president.
96. Do not write to the President of the Church or to other General Authorities. Letters from missionaries to General Authorities are referred back to the mission president
97. Respect the customs, traditions, and property of the people who you are trying to convert.
98. Obey all mission rules.
99. Obey the laws of the land.
100. Do not get involved in politics.
101. Do not get involved in commercial activities.
102. Do not give any information about the area.
103. Respect the customs and cultures of those who you are trying to convert to your own customs and culture.
104. Respect the beliefs, practices, and sites of other religions.
105. Do not say or write anything bad about the political and cultural circumstances where you serve.
106. Do not become involved in adoption proceedings.
107. Do not suggest or encourage emigration. (This rule is a bit ironic, given the now-defunct doctrine of gathering the believers to Zion)
108. Be courteous.
109. Provide community service.
110. Do not provide community service that isn’t approved by your mission president.
111. Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.
112. Do not provide community service during the evening, weekend or holidays—those are peek proselytizing times.
113. Your mission president must approve your housing.
114. Keep your housing unit clean.
115. Do not live with single or divorced people of the opposite sex.
116. Do not live where the spouse is frequently absent.
117. Your living unit must have a private bath and entrance.
118. You may occasionally fast for a special reason, but generally the monthly fast is sufficient.
119. Do not fast longer than 24 hours at a time.
120. Do not ask friends, relatives, and members to join in special fasts for investigators.
121. Maintain your health.
122. Eat a healthy diet.
123. Sleep from 10:30 to 6:30.
124. Follow the approved exercise program.
125. Keep your body, clothes, dishes, linens, towels and housing unit clean.
126. Dispose of your garbage properly and promptly.
127. Follow the safety rules for all of your stuff.
128. Seek medical care if you are in an accident or become sick.
129. Be immunized.
130. Spend your money only on things relating to your mission.
131. Budget your money carefully.
132. Keep a record of what you spend.
133. Do not spend more than your companion.
134. Do not loan money.
135. Do not borrow money.
136. Keep a reserve fund of $50 to $100 at all times for transfers.
137. Pay your bills before leaving an area.
138. Pay cash for all resale literature and supplies ordered from the mission office.
139. Do not waste money on souvenirs.
140. Do not waste money on unnecessary items.
141. Be a frugal photographer.
142. Do not accumulate excess baggage.
143. Obey custom laws and regulations.
144. Pay fast offerings each fast Sunday to the bishop or branch president where you serve.
145. Pay tithing on outside sources of income (i.e. interest) to your home bishop or branch president.
146. Evaluate your funds a few months before the end of your mission. If you have more than you need, ask that less be sent so that you can return home without excess money.
147. Do not drive without a license.
148. Drive only Church-owned vehicles.
149. Do not drive members’ cars.
150. Do not drive nonmembers’ cars.
151. Do not give rides to members or investigators in Church-owned cars.
152. Use cars only on approved mission business.
153. Use cars only within the assigned geographical area.
154. Be conscious of safety at all times.
155. Drive defensively.
156. Wear your seat belt.
157. Pray for the Lord’s protection while driving.
158. If your companion is driving, assist him or her.
159. Do not tamper with the vehicle’s odometer.
160. Know bicycle safety rules.
161. Use extreme caution on your bicycle.
162. Do not ride your bicycle after dark.
163. Do not ride your bicycle in heavy traffic.
164. Do not ride your bicycle in adverse weather conditions.
165. Go directly to your new area when transferred.
166. Find your new companion without delay when transferred.
167. Have a maximum of two suitcases and a briefcase.

[restornu]

...I am very frustrated at times due to the designs of men that have caused endless issues among many good believers to always be at odds with one another. This is undeniable just look at FR RF!”

And you blame FR Religion Forum’s for this?

***

Nice trying to crawl under the fence with this one Colofornian but I was talking about so many good folks “of all faiths” arguing with each other over doctrine etc did you catch so many good folks

It was not FR RF in this case I was talking about.

But grab anything one can to pound with...

[Colofornian]

***Ok show us the verse where it says the word Trinity?*** (Restornu, post #70)

"I am not even sure how i view the trinity, but i do agree that the teaching is man made because the word is not there." (Ravenwolf, post #74)

"Irrelevant word games." (Ruy Dias de Bivar)

Restornu, the word “personage" does not appear anywhere in the Bible; it is a 14 yo pimply-faced boy made concept. (For that matter, I don't think it appears in the BoM, either).

But why stop there, Restornu?

The word "polytheism" doesn't appear in the Bible or Mormon standard words (But that doesn't stop Mormons from worshiping many gods, and trying their best to personally add to the god total, does it?)

Or...Ravenwolf AND Restornu: what about the word "monotheist." (You gonna tell Jews & Christians & Muslims that they all can't be monotheists because the word is missing from their sacred scriptures?)

The word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible. Is that extra-biblical as a concept? Yes, the 1,000 year reign in referenced in Revelation, but where's the words "millennium" or "millennial?"

Restornu & Ravenwolf, where's the word "Christianity" in the Bible (or even the Mormon standard works?) Because it doesn't appear, then does that mean none of us can claim to be Christians? Really?

For that matter, Restornu & Ravenwolf, where is the word "Bible" in the Bible?

***************

[Colofornian]

***Ok show us the verse where it says the word Trinity?*** (Restornu, post #70)

"I am not even sure how i view the trinity, but i do agree that the teaching is man made because the word is not there." (Ravenwolf, post #74)

"Irrelevant word games." (Ruy Dias de Bivar)

Continuation of last post:

I'd be curious from others, especially ex-Mormons, to tell me what common LDS words are not found in any of the standard works.

For example, is "temple recommend" in any standard work?
How about LDS' retrogression of Heavenly Father to when he was a man?
Where is that in any standard work--that he was once a mere man?
What about "general authorities?" Where is that found?
What about "stake presidents?" Is that "scriptural?"
Or "high councilors?"
"Wards?" “Stakes?” Where are those to be found?

I thought the LDS church pretends to be a "restoration" of the original New Testament church pre-apostasy. Where do we find any of these titled leaders mentioned above in the New Testament?
Where is "president" in the New Testament? (That's a distinctly American term coined by George Washington himself...so the Mormon god follows George?)

[Guess to be consistent, Restornu, you'll have to get rid of all these titled "callings" in the Mormon church!]

And speaking of titled leaders and the LDS church being a "restoration" of the original NT church, where are Mormon "pastors" (Eph 4:11)?
Where are Mormon "prophetesses" like Anna in Luke 2:36 or Philip's daughters in Acts 21:9 (others in OT, too)?
Where can we find unmarried 12-year-old deacons in the NT?

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“The Didache is highly suspect.”

---

If the Didache is suspect, then so is Euripedes, who dates far later, whom you cited to claim that that passage is a late addition. IOW, part of a conspiracy to keep you guys down. And if Ignatius is suspect too, who predates both the Didace and Euripedes, then there is nothing suspect also. Thus we are left again with the scripture, and again with the phrase “In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,” whether your sophistry approves of it or not.

[Uri’el-2012]

U-2012> The Didache is highly suspect.

If the Didache is suspect, then so is Euripedes, who dates far later, whom you cited to claim that that passage is a late addition. IOW, part of a conspiracy to keep you guys down. And if Ignatius is suspect too, who predates both the Didace and Euripedes, then there is nothing suspect also. Thus we are left again with the scripture, and again with the phrase “In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,” whether your sophistry approves of it or not.

Euripedes ?

From Proof of the Gospel (the Demonstratio) by Eusebius.

Eusebius (265-339 CE) Bishop of Caesarea around 314 CE

How is your reading comprehension ?

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[redleghunter]

Did you read verse 9?

[redleghunter]

Where are these Hebrew NT scrolls? Asking an honest question.

[CynicalBear]

Mark to see if you get an actual answer.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“How is your reading comprehension ?”

---

Better than yours, even when I switch my Euripedes with my Eusebius!

[Colofornian]

Or so their official writings say. (Syncro, Post #206)

Unless you blink and the Mormon god decides something else... (Elsie, citing The Doctrine and Covenants Section 49:16:):

Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation; 17 And that it might be filled with the measure of man, according to his creation before the world was made.

Rewind to the previous month before the above so-called 'revelation'--one given just 5 days before Valentine's Day [everybody say 'aaahhh, how romantic!']...1831...Joseph had this "revelation":
Doctrine & Covenants 42:22:

"Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and NONE else."

(And btw, at this point, the newly published 1830 Book of Mormon, specifically the Book of Jacob (1:15; 2:24; 3:5), repeatedly speaks negatively of polygamy -- even calling it an "abomination")

So what does Joseph Smith do later in 1831?

Yet, by Summer (July 1831), Smith has very privately pronounced polygamy as personally legit!

The source for that is NONE other than a Mormon apologetics outfit!!!

Initiation of the Practice of Plural Marriage: When and how did plural marriage begin in the Church?

And actually, this Mormon apologetics outfits concedes it even worse than that!!!

When you scroll to the end of this response, you find this concession:

"The bulk of the evidence, therefore, suggests that plural marriage was known by Joseph by EARLY 1831."

I mean, just whoaaaa!!!

Here, we cite that on...on Feb. 9, 1831...
...Joseph Smith is making a so-called "REVELATION" re: "wife" (singular) with "cleave unto her and none else" on Feb. 9, 1831...
...then the very next month, he "revelates" (Elsie's citation above) that marriage is "one flesh"
[NOTE: and for any Mormon apologists tempted to defend "sister wives" being part of that "one flesh" -- why don't you just admit you're defending lesbian "marriage" in the process!!!]

Several internet sources say that Smith's first "plural wife" was a teen housekeeper Fanny Alger -- and that they "married" in 1833...one other reference puts it at 1835.

[restornu]

Yes I did.

Colossians 2:8-11 NASB

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ

from the King James..
The fulness of the Godhead dwells in Christ—Beware of being deceived by the traditions of men—The handwriting against us was nailed to the cross of Christ.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy; and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete; in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

[Colofornian]

Part of the point is that holy spirit is given no honor, no glory, no credit, by anyone.

Does this above assertion pass the "straight face test?"

3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3)

The apostle Paul, of course, is speaking here in an era where to publicly confess Christ wasn't met with "kudos" -- but usually the opposite -- especially persecution.

But who does Paul give 100% "credit" to for even confessing Christ? The Holy Spirit.

Thus, by his own words, DouglasKC needs to give 100% credit to the Holy Spirit...and confess that he has needlessly maligned the Holy Spirit!

"And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth"> (1 John 5:6)

Here, the Holy Spirit is glorified as "The Truth" -- the same exact glorifying comment Jesus gives Himself in John 14:6: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life..."

But to show how DouglasKC has apparently flunked Biblical studies of the Holy Spirit, let's keep reading...Peter, Isaiah, Paul:

"If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit OF GLORY and of God rests on you. (1 Peter 4:14)

Where is he who set
his Holy Spirit among them,
12 who sent his GLORIOUS arm of power
to be at Moses’ right hand,
who divided the waters before them,
to gain for himself everlasting renown,
13 who led them through the depths?
Like a horse in open country,
they did not stumble;
14 like cattle that go down to the plain,
they were given rest by the Spirit of the Lord.
This is how you guided your people
to make for yourself a GLORIOUS name. (Isaiah 63:11-14)

Glory is all directly tied to the work of the Holy Spirit during Old Testament times!

But why stop there? The apostle Paul:

2 Corinthians 3:
In 2 Cor. 3:7 -- Paul talks about how glorious the ministry was of Moses because of God's countenance of glory remaining on Moses after he descended the Holy Mountain where he was in God's Presence.

2 Corinthians 3:8-9, 17-18:
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be EVEN MORE GLORIOUS? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Who renews/transforms us?

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5)

So Who brings such GLORIOUS "righteousness" (2 Cor. 3:8-9)?

"...the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit." (Romans 15:16)

"But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth." (2 Thess. 2:13)

ALL: "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Cor. 13:14)

(Tell us, DouglasKC: How do you "have fellowship" with an "it"???)

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." (And how do you grieve an impersonal "it?") (Eph. 4:30)

[Colofornian]

Ruy Dias de Bivar mentions me in post #41...pings me...[deleted because he repeated your post #13 slur, eh, Douglas?]

And then you add here -- in reference to me: " He's got something... :-)"

Is this your typical "digital ethics" on display? Talking about a poster -- without pinging him/her???

Is this "gossip" practice an ongoing part of your life?

[Colofornian]

Joh_10:30 I and My Father are one." Oops! What happened here? Jesus Christ did not include a person called the holy spirit as being "one" of God. He only included the two of them. (DouglasKC)

ALL: by DouglasKC's logic then -- "Oops" needs to be applied to a LOT of Scriptures: Like..."Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?" (1 Cor. 3:16) "Oops! What happened here? The apostle Paul did not include a person called Jesus Christ as being part of this temple! He only included the two of them." (What a nonsensical conclusion that would be!!!)

OR:

Here, Douglas belongs to a "Church of God" named entity...yet a "church of God" passage (Acts 20:27-28) mentions being a "flock of the Holy Spirit" and that there's shepherds in the "church of God" ...yet "Oops! What happened here? Luke did not include a person called Jesus Christ as being part of this church's/flock's shepherding process. He only included the two of them." (Acts 20:27-28)

That would be MORE such nonsense!

**********************************

Clear Trinitarian passages from Jesus, John, Matthew, Luke, Mark, Peter, Paul, and the writer of Hebrews:

JESUS thru JOHN:
"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name..." (John 14:26)
AND: "All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” (John 16:15) (Btw, The UCGers, coming from the spiritual pregnancy of Herbert W. Armstrong, would have you believe that Jesus was mistaken referencing the Holy Spirit as "he")
JESUS THRU MATTHEW:
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the NAME of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...(Matthew 28:18)
[NOTE: Baptism is the singular NAME of these three, not the plural "Names"]
LUKE:
"how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit..." (Acts 10:38)
JESUS & MARK's co-testimony
35 "While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “Why do the teachers of the law say that the Messiah is the son of David? 36 David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”’ 37 David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?” (Mark 12:35-37)
PETER:
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance." (1 Peter 1:2)
PAUL:
"May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Corinthians 13:14)
And: "to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles. He gave me the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit." (Romans 15:16)
Author of Hebrews:
"How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!" (Hebrews 9:14)

[Colofornian]

It is true the term “trinity” is not used in the Bible. However, there are multiple references to THE Father, THE Son and THE Holy Spirit. “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19].” “May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Corinthians 13:14].” “To God’s elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [1 Peter 1:1-2].”

And I gave a longer list of these type of trinitarian passages from most of the New Testament contributors in the last half of post #238.

[Colofornian]

THEY define what is proper worship yet at the same time their hearts are black and hateful toward others. You know, like whitewashed tombs but their insides are filled with darkness and death...

And this was posted ONLY MINUTES after you deleted post #13...hmmm...

Rita, did you find the "combo" of this quite hypocritical?