Posted on 12/28/2013 3:59:04 PM PST by NYer
Peace for the New Year. We both agree that Grace is necessary for Salvation.
Hogwash! My parish offers 5 Masses every weekend. The sanctuary seats 1500 and we have folks standing all around the walls at every Mass. I attend the 9:15 am Mass on Sunday and the Church is FULL of young families with children.
If you find Church to be a depressing plkace maybe you've been to the wrong Church. I don't know where you live or Church you attended but I urge you to try again and look for serious, traditional and revent place of worship. Worshipping the Risen Lord in communion with fellow believers is a joyful occasion! I always leave Mass feeling 10 foot tall and 2 feet off the ground.
“No. I just sick and tired of hearing how you have to be “born again” to find the Lord.”
BUT obviously, YOU admitted you did not know Christ, and your life reflected that you did not. Rather than argue with the Words of Christ “born again”, your argument is with yourself and the admitted lack of regeneration.
“I was “born again” when I was baptised into the Catholic Church.”
But of course, Scripture doesn’t teach that. Perhaps in your case it occurred as your chose to be baptized. If you are truly entrusting yourself to Him now, I am thrilled for you and wish you continued growth. It is what He wishes for all humanity.
“And I have never accused all fallen-away Catholics of bashers.”
Sure you did - minus the word “all”.
“I say “fallen-away” because if they were baptised Catholic; you don’t get baptised again.”
Oh, I can’t speak for all, but most adults who leave the dead works of catholicism and come to faith in Christ, do choose to follow Him in believers’ baptism, as He commands. Most who grew up in the roman church were baptised as infants, before they could entrust themselves to Him. Most who come to know Him as adults choose to obey and publicly express the new faith in their lives.
Still, you do bash protestants here frequently, apparently based on your earlier still-born faith, which you testified to. This appears in your posts to be some kind of projection onto all protestants of your experience.
“..until the Church starts kicking out...”
Aquinas said that the road to hell is paved with the skulls of (bad) bishops. Not that it is my place to Judge - the idea is that fallen men are in the position but that does not negate the correct doctrine. Pelosi’s bishop(s) CA and DC should refuse her rear communion and they do not have the guts because they are afraid of their non profit statuses - same for the Kennedy crap here in the northeast that went on. The Church needs to say “so what” to the non profit and go ahead with the corporal works of mercy without it.
Remember Zeccheus (sorry if spelled wrong) - our Lord told him to get out of the tree- sinners abound within the CHurch and in Our Lord’s line of vision, too. So we don’t reject OUR LORD and the sacraments over it.
“the constant tradition that is linear”
But of course it is not, if you are any kind of serious student of Church history. If you just want to buy an easy to understand rubric, without looking under the hood, sure.
“Essentially, America is a mobile society and population shifts to accommodate the trends. “
So to follow up on your line of thought, as the eastern churches are closing, there are an equal or greater number of churches opening in other states to handle those mobile overs (and not new immigrants)? Are you saying it is a zero sum game. One closes, another opens in Kansas, or wherever?
“...Of course scripture doesn’t teach that?”
I respectfully disagree- Scripture DOES teach it.
Please reread - I mean get your bible out and read it
John 3:5 and 22
Then read Peter 3:21 and meditate on baptism.
“We understand scripture too - it is just that there are further scriptures that tell us that ONLY belief is not enough. “
Actually, belief is saving. Saving belief is demonstrated visibly through a changed life that includes works.
Once you reverse the order and try to find merit through your works, your train leaves the rails.
No men at Mass??? Your parish needs a Knights of Columbus Council!
Actually this leaving are usually the most faithful church attenders Rome is losing the saved
Wish there was a like button..you are right on
“..your train leaves the rails...”
Maybe the order is reversed? Our order was first.
Still- Catholics DO believe that belief is saving. The issue is that the entire life of Christ and the OT starting with the 10 Commandments is about doing. The deeds must be DONE - the Commandments must be obeyed. Beatitudes = do. If you don’t - are you still saved simply because you (a person, not you personally)
Free Will - Eve chose the fruit out of her FREE WILL and lost paradise.
The Lord, Lord scripture applies here as well as all scripture that exhorts us to follow His example= the road is narrow - not because they believe ONLY = because they follow the path
First, I appreciate the respectful way you wrote that. I will give a respectful answer in return...
John 3:5 - water is physical birth through amniotic fluid, not baptism. Verse 6 makes it clear Christ is contrasting the first (water) with physical birth and the second (born of the spirit) spiritual birth. The first doesn’t save, nor does Christ say so. He says if you don’t experience both, you won’t experience the kingdom of God.
John 3:22 - if you read further, you will see the context is baptism for repentance - John the Baptist’s baptism, since he was not yet thrown into jail. Never does it say those baptized in this way went to heaven.
I Peter 3:21 - in this instance you are imputing a meaning without context, based on a word. Here is more of the passage for context.
“19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[e] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.”
Baptism saves Christians now as the water that floated Noah’s ark saved him and drowned his unbelieving antagonists. The water itself did not save Noah, it was a judgement on the world. Noah obeyed God by putting his faith in His provision before the rain began and he was saved.
The water itself does not save us by cleansing us from defilement, but announces publicly that the person baptized has placed his or her faith in Jesus Christ. Baptism symbolizes exactly what Noah experienced, a break with the old life that God wiped away - as a result of his faith in God’s word.
Baptism by the Holy Spirit places the believer into Christ, saving him. Water baptism is a visual testimony to the world of what has happened internally.
Summary, none of those passages says water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Mea culpa - meant to ask is a person still saved because they believe only? Why a conscience then?
Get out your bible and read Matthew 7:21 and see how that works out.
The water is necessary plus the faith. We agree to disagree, sort of - the water is the created (look at Genesis) method that the Lord uses. Baptism is a must to get into the Kingdom - Faith + water- Faith alone won’t do it - Why? Because we are flesh and not spirit alone - God made us flesh and we need an actual element (Genesis again) If we were purely spiritual beings - angels, we would not need the actual water.
No, it is not necessary, and is not taught in any passage you put forth.
FAITH is entrusting ourselves to HIS finished work. When we do that, we are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ. His righteousness is imputed to us. His life is now in us.
THAT life of Christ WILL result in good works, just as an apple tree produces apples as the sap flows through it. One of these works is to obey His command to become baptized. It symbolizes what God has done in our lives and testifies to the world.
“Mea culpa - meant to ask is a person still saved because they believe only? “
If someone comes to saving faith she WILL live a life that reflects Christ’s life in her.
That is not to say anyone will never sin. They will not stay in sin. If they do, their faith very well may be dead.
HE knows His sheep. We don’t always know.
Great Post!
if a believer commits sins that go against the ten commandments (for example) What is their recourse?
We are humans. My neighbors are “born again” and they have normal human foibles (with a touch of hubris) I might add - Pride?? Pride got Eve into trouble.
They try not to show it however they feel superior that they are “saved” whereas we mere Catholics aren’t - how does that fit into the Gospel?
In other words, they don’t always live the Truth
Can’t say it better than Stonehouse01. So I will borrow his precise words.
“...sick and tired of hearing how you have to be born again..”
me too - It is clear in the bible that baptism IS being born again - “born again” doesn’t mean anything without baptism and scripture does not say it, either.
John 3:5, 22 Acts 2:37-38 - are about baptism - not this born again song and dance. We are born again in the spirit at baptism.
PS: Thanks Stonehouse
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