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Vanishing Catholics
hprweb ^ | December 23, 2013 | FR. WILLIAM P. CLARK, OMI

Posted on 12/28/2013 3:59:04 PM PST by NYer

According to recent demographic surveys, it seems there are presently 30 million people in the U.S. who identify themselves as “former Catholics.” That figure is both surprising, and, for Catholics, disheartening.

Over the past 50 years or so, a profound change, other than that effected by Vatican II, has taken place in the Catholic Church. It might be described as the phenomenon of “vanishing Catholics.” The Canadian philosopher, Charles Taylor, has identified four major challenges facing the Church today. First on his list is the exodus of young adults from the Church. According to recent demographic surveys, it seems there are presently 30 million people in the U.S. who identify themselves as “former Catholics.” That figure is both surprising, and, for Catholics, disheartening. It represents a little less than 10 percent of the total population of this country. It also means that had those persons remained Catholic, approximately one in three Americans would be identified as Catholic. Only two religious groups represent a larger percentage of the U.S. population: Protestants (cumulatively) and current Catholics.

This phenomenon is disheartening not only for bishops and priests, but also for faithful Catholics generally. Many older Catholics are saddened at the sight of their children and grandchildren abandoning the Church.

Questions naturally arise. What has caused such a massive defection? How might one account for this phenomenon? It hardly seems possible that any single factor could explain a phenomenon of such magnitude. Various reasons for people leaving the Church are well-known. Many of them have been operative from the earliest times of Christianity. In his first letter to Timothy, St. Paul reminds him that “The Spirit has explicitly said that during the last times some will desert the faith and pay attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines …” (1 Tm 4:1-7). In his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul speaks of dissensions and divisions among the faithful (1 Cor 1:10-16).

From the first centuries up to modern times, there have been doctrinal differences (heresies) which led to great numbers separating themselves from the Roman Catholic Church. Many others have left the Church for what can be described as practical reasons, rather than doctrinal differences.

Among the latter, there are many who separated themselves from the Church because of marriage problems. There are those who left because they became greatly dissatisfied with inadequate preaching, uninviting liturgy, and minimal hospitality in their parishes. It seems worth noting that expecting church attendance and public worship to be therapeutically satisfying often leads to disappointment and eventual alienation.

Not a few have left the Church because of real or perceived mistreatment by bishops or pastors. Reactions have a way of becoming overreactions. An overreaction to clericalism and paternalism in the Church resulted in autonomy becoming absolute. Evelyn Underhill offered a helpful analogy in this regard. She likened the Church to the Post Office. Both provide an essential service, but it is always possible to find an incompetent and annoying clerk behind the counter. Persons who expect all representatives of the Church to live up to the ideals proposed by the Church will typically become disillusioned and leave. Persons with such expectations would have left the Church of the Holy Apostles.

Most recently, a cause for many leaving the Church is the scandal of clergy sexual abuse. This has been a stumbling block not only for those directly affected, but for Catholics generally. Because of the questionable role played by a number of bishops, their moral authority is diminished. The time when bishops could command is past. Now, they can only hope to persuade and invite. Loyalty to bishops had been widely identified with loyalty to the Church. As the former loyalty diminished, so did the latter.

Clearly there are times when the Church is more of an obstacle than a help to faith. At Vatican II, the Council Fathers pointed out that the Church is always in danger of concealing, rather than revealing, the authentic features of Christ. Often enough, members of the Church’s leadership have been guilty of a sin typical of many religious teachers—namely, being more concerned about preservation of their authority than about the truth.

While specific reasons can be cited, it is helpful to recognize several underlying attitudes that are operative. (1) There is an anti-dogmatic spirit which is suspicious of the Church’s emphasis on fidelity to traditional teachings. (2) There is the widespread belief that one can be free to ignore, deny, or minimize one or more received doctrines without feeling compelled to break with the Church. (3) There is also the belief that, guided by their own conscience, regardless of how that matches—or fails to match—generally accepted Catholic teaching, persons can develop their own understanding of what it means to be Catholic. Someone has coined a phrase that describes persons with those attitudes, calling them “cafeteria Catholics,” i.e., those who pick and choose what to accept of official Catholic teaching and ignore the rest.

Two questions arise in the face of the phenomenon of “vanishing Catholics.” One question is of a more theological and ecclesial level: are those departed to be considered heretics or schismatics? A second question arises at the practical level: how can those who have left be reunited with the Church? Regarding the first question, it is worth noting that, while speaking of dissension and division among the faithful, and of separation from the community of believers, the New Testament does not make a distinction between heresy and schism. Since the definition of the Pope’s primacy of jurisdiction, it is difficult to see how there can be a schism that is not a heresy.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (§2089), heresy “is the obstinate, post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is, likewise, an obstinate doubt concerning the same.” Schism is “the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff, or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.” The Theological Dictionary, compiled by Karl Rahner and Herbert Vorgrimler, defines heresy as “primarily an error in matters of faith. The heretic takes a truth out of the organic whole, which is the faith, and because he looks at it in isolation, misunderstands it, or else denies a dogma.” “Schism occurs when a baptized person refuses to be subject to the Pope, or to live in communion with the members of the Church, who are subject to the Pope.”

In any case, given the variety of reasons for people leaving the Church, the degree of separation, and especially assuming good will on the part of those leaving, it is difficult to classify them as heretics or schismatics. Church authorities have the right and the duty to take measures against heresy and schism when those become evident. Clear denial of a dogma cannot be tolerated. But between this and a purely private, material heresy, there are many shades. Not every challenge to accepted theology is heretical. There are many partial non-identifications that endanger faith and unity but do not rise to the level of schism. Nor does every act of disobedience to human laws in the Church imply schism.

While speculative questions about heresy and schism are significant and need to be addressed, they pale in comparison to the practical question of how those departed can be reunited with the Church. That question is as complex as are the reasons for people leaving the Church. That question is further complicated when one addresses the question of the underlying attitudes that are operative.

Obviously, the Church must work at removing any obstacles to reunion. With Vatican II, that work was begun. The Council recognized the Church is semper reformanda, always needing to be reformed. The actual return of individuals requires something more than an adjustment in Church practices or new programs. It is a matter of God touching the individual with his grace.

A final question that can prove troubling is how the massive defection from the Church is to be reconciled with God’s providence. This is simply one of many instances in which we are challenged to believe in an omnipotent God, who is also a loving, provident Father. Providence is not an occasional, intrusive, manipulative presence, but one that is with us both in tragedy and in joy, in the joy that consists not so much in the absence of suffering, as in the awareness of God’s presence. To find the strength to experience calmly the difficulties and trials that come into our lives is a tremendous challenge. If, however, we are able to do that, every event can be “providential.” In a sermon on the feast of the Ascension, Pope Leo the Great said: “For those who abandon themselves to God’s providential love, faith does not fail, hope is not shaken, and charity does not grow cold.”

There can be a very subtle, almost imperceptible temptation to think we know better than God how things should be. We can be like the naive little girl, who, in her prayers, told God that if she were in God’s place, she would make the world better. And God replied: “That is exactly what you should be doing.”


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; History; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: catholics; trends
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To: boatbums

Also - how do you account for all of the scripture that tells us he is the shepherd?


401 posted on 12/30/2013 12:04:32 AM PST by stonehouse01
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To: stonehouse01

Again sorry for mispells - bedtime for reL


402 posted on 12/30/2013 12:06:05 AM PST by stonehouse01
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To: mitch5501

Do you actually think that belief trumps action when we are specifically told to Aact in the bible - not just sit there and beieve like dummies?

It is both.


403 posted on 12/30/2013 12:10:15 AM PST by stonehouse01
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To: stonehouse01

There is no contradiction, He is the shepherd and the sheep who get through merit it because they were good sheep.


404 posted on 12/30/2013 12:12:19 AM PST by stonehouse01
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To: stonehouse01
"Do you actually think that belief trumps action when we are specifically told to Aact in the bible - not just sit there and beieve like dummies?"

So you would read Mark 5:36 as...be not afraid,only believe sit there like a dummy?

405 posted on 12/30/2013 12:35:13 AM PST by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: stonehouse01
And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. (Luke 10:39-42)

Do you think Mary was sitting there like a dummy? She chose that needful/good part which shall not be taken away from her.

Because....

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.(Isaiah 55:11)

406 posted on 12/30/2013 12:45:03 AM PST by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: CTrent1564
Civil War or as some of the Southerners say, the War between the States.

Here in Virginia we refer to it as "The War of Northern Aggression"

407 posted on 12/30/2013 3:53:23 AM PST by verga (The devil is in the details)
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To: cothrige
Oh, they keep going, but not because it is a powerful faith motivator in their life, but out of a sense of inertia. And because their kids are in the school, or their wife is, or their mother is, or their mother in law is, or some other kind of thing. Many go because they are required to if they are to receive any subsidies for their kids' tuition. How is that for a reason to go to Mass?

Okay ... I see the point you are trying to make. Essentially, like you, I am drawn to church to actually worship God, to be in His presence and to receive Him in the Eucharist. This desire wells up from my heart; I seek His presence and relish time alone with Him, sitting quietly in an empty church. I wish everyone felt this way.

In truth, though, I did not always feel this way. Throughout my life, there were many times when I attended Sunday mass out of obligation, rather than desire. IOW, I was like the parishioners you describe above. Ironically, it was the internet that began the process of altering that approach. In attempting to address the misunderstandings of non-catholics, I began to learn more about my faith. As this knowledge increased, my relationship with Christ also grew until it blossomed into a loving friendship. Daily prayer and recitation of the Prayers of the Faithful (Divine Office) deepened the relationship.

Faith is indeed a gift from God. He calls to each and every one of us, where we are. Better to have unimpassioned parishioners attend mass than to skip it entirely with the excuse of needing to get the kids to some sporting event. Pray for your fellow parishioners and ask our Lord to kindle the flame of love in their hearts. Rather than judge these individuals, trust that God is in charge and leave the rest up to Him. More importantly, cherish the bond you have formed with Him. Be grateful for His love.

408 posted on 12/30/2013 5:34:44 AM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: NYer

Good post bump.


409 posted on 12/30/2013 6:08:41 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: stonehouse01; boatbums
Salvation by grace by believing

John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Galatians 2:15-21 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Galatians 3:1-29 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Ephesians 2:1-10And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

John 1:11-13 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Acts 16:27-31 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Romans 10:9-13 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

410 posted on 12/30/2013 6:25:03 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: stonehouse01; boatbums; daniel1212
Also - how do you account for all of the scripture that tells us he is the shepherd?

Jesus is the shepherd. He is also the door, the vine, the bread of life, the way, the truth, the life, ......

No man comes to the Father but through JESUS.

NOT through a door that Jesus opened. But through Jesus Himself because He IS the door.

Peter tells us in Acts 4 that there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.

411 posted on 12/30/2013 6:29:20 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: redleghunter; Salvation; stonehouse01
I get constant news articles from family in NY of Parish consolidations, school closures and property sell offs.

Indeed, this is the situation throughout the northeast. Keep in mind that many of these churches were constructed in the 19th century by immigrants who moved here for manufacturing jobs. To put this into perspective, here in NY's Hudson Valley, there are several small cities within close proximity to each other. Watervliet and Cohoes are on the left side of the Hudson River with Troy on the right side. Watervliet is home to the US Army's oldest arsenal; Troy was once known as the "collar city" because men's shirt collars were manufactured there. Just north in Cohoes, there were manufacturing mills for clothing, fabric, etc Each of these cities was home to Irish, German, French, Italian and a mixture of Russian and Middle Eastern immigrants. In the small city of Watervliet alone, there were 5 churches!! After the initial wave of immigrants, their descendants moved further west or south. When men's shirt collars were no longer the fad, those manufacturing plants closed. The churches remained but their congregations shrank. About 5 years ago, the RC Diocese of Albany announced that they could no longer support the maintenance of so many churches. Watervliet merged 5 churches into one! The other properties were sold off or torn down. This process was repeated in Troy, Cohoes, Albany and other parts of the Hudson Valley.

Essentially, America is a mobile society and population shifts to accommodate the trends. Where once there were no churches, new ones are being constructed. It is sad to watch the old churches being closed but that is the result of multiple factors. Added to this burden, is a shortage of priests in this particular diocese.

412 posted on 12/30/2013 6:30:22 AM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: NKP_Vet

Yet you accuse former Catholics of being terrible bashers. Yet you as a former baptist want to has all Protestants because you were a drunk who didn’t know The Lord., according to your confession.

It appears you have projected your experience onto hundreds of millions of Protestants and condemned them.


413 posted on 12/30/2013 7:12:25 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Truth is hate to those who hate the Truth)
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To: redleghunter

redleghunter:

No, what I am telling you is that you read those passages and come to conclusion 2 in 2013-2014, all these early Church Fathers read the same NT as you and I did and come to conclusion 1. Your conclusions are in contradiction to theirs. Here I am 2000 years later and say, what is the Truth, how was the Church understood the Apostolic Tradition, which it received from Christ, down thru the centuries. It is apparent early on that starting with the Didache, a late 1st century Catechism and Liturgical Work, clearly indicates Confession. All of the orthodox Church Fathers in the 2nd century, the ones who wrote against the heresy of Gnosticism do the same. In the 3rd century, all orthodox Church Fathers who are writing against the Heresy of not only Gnosticism still, now Modalism, still interpret the NT to indicate COnfession, real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. By the time we get to the 4th century, when we have Arianism, Donatism, Manichaeism, and we have the COuncils of Nicea and Constantinopile, 325 and 381 AD, we see all the orthodox Theologians and Biblical scholars indicating the NT indicates the Sacrament of COnfession.

And this is the way it was understood till the 16th century. Ohhhhh, but wait, in the 16th century, a group of men now think they are writ and everyone before them is wrong. Of course, we are talking about a few men, Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, Knox, King Henry VII, Thomas Crammer. Much of what the retained was consistent with the historic Catholic faith, some not, and now we have literally thousands who say ohh, those guys back then got it wrong. Heck, they have to have gotten wrong, because Rome teaches Sacramental theology and those guys, you know, they sound like Theologians and Biblical Scholars who had “well, a Sacramental theology” when it comes to Confession, Eucharist, Annointing of the Sick, Baptism, etc, etc. so hey, those guys can’t be correct, because Rome teaches that today and heck, we know Rome is wrong. Therefore, I read the NT and say, hmmm no confession, and I am correct.

Sorry, not buying it yesterday, today, or tomorrow.

I will stand with the constant tradition that is linear from CHrist, to the Apostles, to the pre-Nicene Fathers [Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Irenaues, CLement of Alexandria, Cyprian of Carthage, etc] to the post Nicene Fathers, Hillary of Potiers, Ambrose of Milan, Augustine, Jerome, Basil the Great, Athanasius, etc, etc, down to the great middle age theologians of St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Anselm, St. Albert the Great, Domenic and Francis, etc ,etc.

In summary, I reject 100% that Christianity started in the 15th century with Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, and Knox and that their theological descendants got it right.


414 posted on 12/30/2013 7:14:15 AM PST by CTrent1564
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

No. I just sick and tired of hearing how you have to be
“born again” to find the Lord. I was “born again” when
I was baptised into the Catholic Church. And I have never accused all fallen-away Catholics of bashers. I did say that the worst Catholic bashers I have ever known in my life were fallen-away Catholics. I say “fallen-away” because if they were baptised Catholic; you don’t get baptised again. Not unless you’re in a faith that has no trinitarian baptism (Johovah Witness), or that is so out in the left field with their beliefs they are not Christian, no matter what they say, as in LDSC.


415 posted on 12/30/2013 7:41:02 AM PST by NKP_Vet ("Rather than love, than money, than fame, then give truth" ~ Henry David Thoreau)
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To: metmom

Of course Jesus is the door. All agree to that - the idea of the gate opening is a metaphor to help our human minds grasp the idea. Jesus himself is the Gate that opened.


416 posted on 12/30/2013 8:01:49 AM PST by stonehouse01
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To: NKP_Vet

“...sick and tired of hearing how you have to be born again..”

me too - It is clear in the bible that baptism IS being born again - “born again” doesn’t mean anything without baptism and scripture does not say it, either.

John 3:5, 22 Acts 2:37-38 - are about baptism - not this born again song and dance. We are born again in the spirit at baptism.


417 posted on 12/30/2013 8:06:46 AM PST by stonehouse01
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To: stonehouse01

Amen.


418 posted on 12/30/2013 8:28:26 AM PST by NKP_Vet ("Rather than love, than money, than fame, then give truth" ~ Henry David Thoreau)
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To: metmom

Yes - that is the point - we Catholics believe and embrace every scripture you just laid out. Catholics are perfectly aware that belief is essential to eternal life - why would we think otherwise? We understand scripture too - it is just that there are further scriptures that tell us that ONLY belief is not enough. First things- Belief - the scriptures you quoted are beautiful however the implication is that Catholics do not think belief is necessary when WE GET THAT GRACE is first!!!


419 posted on 12/30/2013 8:41:21 AM PST by stonehouse01
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To: Ghost of SVR4
Until the church starts kicking out some politicians I find no reason to be in the pew.

What does that have to do with ste state of your soul? Christ came to save sinners, not angels. None of us are perfect and we all fall far short of the Glory of God. I'm not happy when someone like Pelosi makes very public, scandalous and heretical remarks about the Church, but she speaks for herself and condemns herself at the same time.

420 posted on 12/30/2013 8:45:10 AM PST by pgkdan
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