When is the Rapture ?

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[Uri’el-2012]

Why I believe the Rapture of the Church

will take place between December 25, 2013,

and January 4, 2014

The Lord has been giving me pieces to a puzzle for the last 13 years, leading me to the date for the firstfruits Rapture of the Church. The puzzle ends between December 25, 2013, and January 4, 2014. I very strongly believe that the Rapture will take place on January 3/4, 2014. However, it is possible that the puzzle can end as early as December 25, 2013.

[jimmyray]

QUOTE: "Why would it start at the appearance of the Messiah. There is not multiple of a seven year period from the birth of the Messiah. The clock stopped at Jesus crucifixion to be started again at the signing of the “covenant” by the antichrist with Israel."

The appearing of Messiah is not his birth, rather it is his baptism by John. Many accept the date of the issuing of the decree to be 457 BC. 69 weeks of 7 years is 483 years, which brings us to 26 AD, the time of the start of Messiah's earthly ministry.

Incidentally, Messiah, which was cut off AFTER 69 weeks, or about 3.5 years into his ministry, which coincides with the middle of the 70th week. Again, that is why the Beast is only given power to reign for 42 months, or 3.5 years, the remainder of the week.

The post about Why would it start at the appearance of the Messiah. There is not multiple of a seven year period from the birth of the Messiah. The clock stopped at Jesus crucifixion to be started again at the signing of the “covenant” by the antichrist with Israel.

The post regarding Isaiah 28:15 & 18 is interesting, but this refers to a covenant with the death and the grave, and the timing is WAY off. That's not the same as a covenant with Satan or the Beast.

[jimmyray]

QUOTE: "Yeshua said, in Matthew 24 in plain terms, that his sheep will go through the trib."

Plain as day! This passage gave me such trouble in my pre-trib days, as I could never reconcile how verse 31 was not the rapture, but rather some other gathering. And that the rapture had occured ealier in the passage, but was not mentioned. I kept having to look at charts and commnnetaries for the explanation, for that explanation is not in the scripture!

When I decided to accept the scripture for what it says, instead of forcing a theory on it, it was liberating, and the scripture became as plain as it could be. Then I truly understood Jesus' admonition “Watch out that no one deceives you." and later Paul's warining in 2 Thess 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessnessa is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

The scripture is obvious for those who study it for themselves!

[jimmyray]

QUOTE: Besides, it’s not Michael protects the “church”.

I never suggested it was. I believe you suggest the "he" is either:

1. The Holy Spirit, or
2. The Church.

If you have any scriptural evidence outside of 2 Thessalonians regarding the identity of "he", please provide it.

[Cvengr]

Believers will go through the Great Tribulation, but not necessarily the Church caught up in the air in the Rapture.

[mitch5501]

When salt is removed meat quickly decays and becomes poisonous to those who eat it.

[CynicalBear]

>>All of your obsession with the Nation of Israel is moot, for they will only be saved when they believe on Christ.<<

Israel as a nation will accept Christ as their savior during the seven year tribulation.

[CynicalBear]

>>Here's the rub, dispensationalism, as set up by Darby in the early 1800's, and perpetuated by Scofield's notes.<<

Oh really?

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

As I understand it Paul lived long before Darby.

>>The remnant in Israel will only be saved when they turn to the one whom they have pierced, and become believers, and will thus be grafted back into the good vine, which is Christ.<<

Yes they will, after this age of grace it is written.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

As it was prophesied that “in that day”.

Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

[CynicalBear]

>>That's no hint, you simply retyped the scripture in question, and implied since the Thessalonians knew who it was, then you do too.<<

LOL Do you think he would have told them and not included that information to us? I’ll leave that study to you.

>>I provided scriptural evidence it was Michael who is removed as the protector of national Israel, and you say no. Scripture, please.<<

No, you quoted a verse that shows that Michael will “stand” to protect Israel during that time.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

[CynicalBear]

>>The appearing of Messiah is not his birth, rather it is his baptism by John. Many accept the date of the issuing of the decree to be 457 BC. 69 weeks of 7 years is 483 years, which brings us to 26 AD, the time of the start of Messiah's earthly ministry.<<

Say what? 26AD is when Jesus ministry started? Christ was crucified in 33AD. That would have made His ministry 7 years long. Jesus ministry was 3 ½ years and started in 29AD as scripture and historical records clearly show.

Luke 3:1 "Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Ceasar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea . . ."

The fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius was 29AD as it began in 14AD.

You can go by what “many accept” but I’ll rely on history and scripture.

>>Incidentally, Messiah, which was cut off AFTER 69 weeks, or about 3.5 years into his ministry, which coincides with the middle of the 70th week.<<

NO it doesn’t. Jesus crucifixion was the end of the 69 weeks.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off

There is no half a week in there. It’s 3 ½ years after the peace treaty is signed that the sacrifice ends with the antichrist setting himself up as god in the temple. Then another 3 ½ weeks till he and his armies are destroyed and Christ sets up His kingdom on earth.

[CynicalBear]

>>When salt is removed meat quickly decays and becomes poisonous to those who eat it.<<

chuckle

[CynicalBear]

>>This passage gave me such trouble in my pre-trib days, as I could never reconcile how verse 31 was not the rapture,<<

Those who deny the rapture of the church make either Daniel or Jesus out to be a liar. Daniel gave a specific number of days from when the antichrist sets himself up in the temple to when Christ returns. Even those who deny the rapture of the church can’t deny that. Yet they also will, with great enthusiasm, proclaim we will not know the day or the hour of Christ’s return.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

It doesn’t take a math wiz to understand when Christ will return after “the daily sacrifice shall be taken away”.

So for you who deny the rapture which is it. Was Jesus wrong or Daniel?

[editor-surveyor]

>> “Those who deny the rapture” <<

.
Your comment makes no sense whatsoever.

I am unaware of anyone ever denying the First Resurrection. There are conflicting assertions WRT when it occurs, but no denial that I can find.

Your comment is especially vexing to a thinking person since it was in reply to jimmyray’s post specifically on the resurrection as Yeshua called it, at the last trump. (that is also where Paul called it in 1Corinthians 15).

Can you tell us who denied the First Resurrection? And When they did it? Or is this all a smokescreen?

>> “ Yet they also will, with great enthusiasm, proclaim we will not know the day or the hour of Christ’s return.” <<

.
No one that has even a modicum of understanding of how Yom Teruah is determined could possibly make such a proclamation. It is the observation of the new moon at the temple mount in Jerusalem that marks the occurrence of Yom Teruah, and since it can be dependent on weather conditions, truly no one can call it out in advance. The moon has to be sighted. That is all that is meant by the declaration that no man knows the day nor hour. If you had any understanding of the traditions that Yeshua was explaning, you would have known that.

I would like also to call your attention to the fact that Daniel didn’t make any reference to a temple in his prophecy regarding the abomination; it could simply be in the open on the mount and still satisfy Daniel’s prophecy. Yeshua, speaking in Matthew, said only that he would stand in the holy place, which by any reasonable understanding would be on the mercy seat of the Ark. (that is the only “holy place” that presently exists)

So Yeshua got it right, and so did Daniel, and it appears to this observer that you have something wrong.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “So now you have to answer the question; “what is “taken out of the way” before ‘that Wicked’ to be revealed?” <<

.
The answer to that question requires the determination of “who letteth,” which can only be the governmental authority that the abomination replaces. (only a government can ‘let.’)

It certainly cannot be any of Yeshua’s sheep, since they don’t ‘let.’

[editor-surveyor]

>> “but not necessarily the Church caught up in the air in the Rapture.” <<

.
I don’t think I am understanding you correctly, could you expand?

[UCANSEE2]

So at the very least it is worth it for you to read.

Then, I shall do my best to give it a read.

[SisterK]

you have mail

[CynicalBear]

>>Your comment makes no sense whatsoever.<<

I have no doubt that they make no sense to you.

>>I am unaware of anyone ever denying the First Resurrection.<<

Nor am I.

>>Your comment is especially vexing to a thinking person<<

Perhaps it would be better just to take scripture a stop all that carnal thinking.

>>Yeshua called it, at the last trump<<

Per you is the “last trump” when the antichrist sets himself up in the temple, after the battle of Armageddon, after the thousand year reign or some other time?

>>No one that has even a modicum of understanding of how Yom Teruah<<

It would be best if we all used the language from the New Testament. We are not all Jewish imposters.

>>If you had any understanding of the traditions that Yeshua was explaning, you would have known that.<<

What do you know of my understanding of the traditions of Jesus? Surely you’re not a mind reader are you? Surely you aren’t trying to make this personal and attempt to denigrate me are you?

>>I would like also to call your attention to the fact that Daniel didn’t make any reference to a temple in his prophecy regarding the abomination; it could simply be in the open on the mount and still satisfy Daniel’s prophecy.<<

Given that Israel has everything ready to build the temple probably makes you a little nervous then.

>>Yeshua, speaking in Matthew, said only that he would stand in the holy place,<<

Yeah, I’m sure the “sanctuary of strength” is simply somebody’s back yardwhere they have spread holy water or swung around the holy smoke right?

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

I’m sure for those who like to establish their doctrines and beliefs on one verse or one passage this all seems complicated. It would be especially problematic for someone who doesn’t even think we have the infallible, Holy Spirit inspired New Testament available to us today.

[CynicalBear]

>>The answer to that question requires the determination of “who letteth,” which can only be the governmental authority that the abomination replaces.<<

So all governments will be gone before the antichrist is revealed ey? I’m sure we can all see that coming.

>>It certainly cannot be any of Yeshua’s sheep, since they don’t ‘let.<<

So you don’t think believers have held this government back from total evil? Wow! I can see the hordes flocking to hear you wisdom now.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “So all governments will be gone before the antichrist is revealed ey?” <<

Why the nonsensical strawman?

The Abomination is to rise as the governments of Earth are collapsing in economic turmoil (kind of like right now). He will rise by offering supposed solutions (like his ‘mark’)

Can you not see that coming?

Current governments are total evil now, especially the U.S. government, that has just cancelled the pensions of many war vets, and forbids all Christian references in the public places.

Turkey, Italy and France are in the news today with major economic upheaval, and Obama has run our country with a secret cabinet of members of the Muslim Brotherhood.

[CynicalBear]

>>Yeshua, speaking in Matthew, said only that he would stand in the holy place<<

That would be a problem for anyone who doesn’t think the New Testament as we have it today is the infallible, Holy Spirit inspired word of God. For those who have total faith in the ability of God to preserve His word for us today it isn’t a problem. You see, the Holy Spirit through Paul said this.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.