You're Probably Not Saved, Yet.

It's hard to skip that class when the Holy Spirit lives with in you.
It's not the same as a learning experience as in a classroom.

>>Is it your opinion then that because God can see the future before it arrives that by not changing that future He is ordaining it ... at every juncture?<<

Well, let’s look at that word “ordained”.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained (תַן - nathan) thee a prophet unto the nations.

nathan: to give, put, set

That Greek word is an action verb. God didn’t just “know” or “foresee” but He made it happen. He set it in place. Paul explains it in his letter to the Romans.

Romans 9: 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

The Greek word in verse 11 above “election” means a choosing out, selecting, choice by God. God chose Jacob before they were born.

He then goes on to explain that God is control of all aspects of life.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Then Paul admonishes to not question God’s will and plan.

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

God doesn’t just see the future. He set it in motion and “ordained” it to happen for His glory.

See my post 402.

Have a pleasant Christ Mass. I will contend no further over these issues.

Jacob WAS a conniver and a deceiver..even God said he was.. In what Bible do you find "even God said he was" ?
BTW Jacob means supplanter according to the Bible His name means And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau. And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob. You interpret that negatively as supplanter. I interpret that as rightful liberator. Esau never had the spiritual right to the inheritance. As it is written, And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. To continue lobbying for Esau in place of Jacob is really saying Jesus, the Holy One of Jacob, was a supplanter.
BTW as for the obeying his Mommy bit... Genesis 27:12, 13 Jacob tells his Mom that his father will know that he is not Esau and that Jacob has deceived him and that he will be cursed. cursed by whom ??? God...God would curse Jacob for his deception.. Not cursed by God, but cursed by his father Isaac
Rebekah agrees that Jacob will be doing something evil No, not evil, albeit deceptive in order to ensure a sacrilege is not committed by Isaac and would be cursed but urges him to deceive his father after all and cajoles him with a halfhanded “Upon me be your curse” knowing full well that her son Jacob would not be excused from the evil he was going to do to his brother ans his father .. Rebekah was taking the spiritual responsibility because she had received the Word of God before either of her sons was born, as it is written, And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger. . She knew that Jacob was tam and that Esau was not. And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain man, dwelling in tents. And Isaac loved Esau, because he did eat of his venison: but Rebekah loved Jacob. because of God's word and Jacob's nature. Rebekah, who is a saint, shared God's love of Jacob.
Remember back in verse 28 of Chapter 25 God tells us that Isaac loved Esau because Isaac got to eat the meat Esau hunted for but Rebekah loved Jacob.. So at the time that Jacob connives with his mother against his father and his own brother and is prepared to deceive Isaac his father in order to steal the blessing legally due his older brother, Isaac the man of God loved Esau but not Jacob.. The perspective you espouse is obviously different than Rebekah's and God's. Many of the rabbis made the same error and refused, or were unable to, recognize and love God's anointed.
It seems Isaac knew that Jacob was a lowlife.. Isaac made the mistake of many father's and gave his love to an ungodly first born son, perhaps hoping he would change his nature. And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite: Which were a grief of mind unto Isaac and to Rebekah.
Remember it wasn’t Esaus idea to give Jacob his birthright.. Jacob demanded it of his brother.. As he should; the birthright belonged to Jacob as the throne belongs to Jesus
He refused to feed his hungry brother who was the one to usually provide food for the family.... I think there is more to this than meets the eye, a classic struggle between Good (Jacob) and Evil (Esau). The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.
until Esau gave Jacob something that he was not entitled to have..Esaus birthright as the oldest son.. Your view is carnal, not spiritual. The birthright never belonged to Esau. It always belonged to Jacob, before they were even born. Their nature and behaviour was completely opposite each other. thats not a virtuous move on Jacobs part..that evil conniving, deceiving, just like his ambitious mother, Rebekah.. Clearly you go to far and offend; do you not realize that Jacob and Rebekah are with the LORD, and will come with Him to judge ? And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Even the Catholic Church teaches "The patriarchs, prophets, and certain other Old Testament figures have always been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church's liturgical traditions." CCC 61
How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom the LORD hath not defied? I have found no word of God against Jacob or Rebekah. I know the adversary hates them with an everlasting hatred.

While it is correct that Jacob was not the one to change his name from Jacob it was changed for all time to Israel by God.. and He asked him “What is your name?” and he said “Jacob” And He said “Your name will NO LONGER be Jacob but Israel because as a prince you have power with God and with man and you have3 prevailed. Genesis 32:27, 28 and so on..

And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
A littled later in Genesis it is written, And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother.
And later, And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here am I.
Jacob uses both names here Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father.
And here For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
And here And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
And here And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Oh jeez... On Christmas Eve, no less. Not gonna read thru it to see if you've been here yet.

(And, yes, I did read about the first 4 responses. Someone said "Calvinist" and yes, I partly concur. Calvinist b**g p**p, I'd say.")

Rebekah was taking the spiritual responsibility because she had received the Word of God before either of her sons was born, as it is written somewhere
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again no book chapter and verse if these are from the Christian Bible..

but I will address this one for you poor lil ol desparate grasshopper ...

Rebecca was a meddling interfering mother just like Sarai was ..

If Rebecca had believed God and had faith in Him she would have not got in the flesh and gone ahead and tried to bring a prophesy to pass in her own way...she would have had patience and waited for God..

and she would not have plotted against her own husband...

and so the family had more trouble due to Rebekah’s fawning over her darling boy..

Sarai also jumped ahead and urged her husband Abraham to have sex with hera slave woman in order to give Sarai a baby..the slave was owned by Sarai to do with as she liked and legally/culturally all children the slave woman had by the master would be the children of Sarai not by extension but in reality though not physically hers...

in this the slave woman had no choose about the sex with the master but she did have the comfort of the assurance her child would be free and entitled to inheritance although she could never acknowledge him..she mocked Sarah later about this

Later as Sarah (notice the name never changed back) she sent her slave woman and the boy away so that only Isaac would be a son of Isaac and inherit..

Isaac was the son of promise the only legitimate son the only son of the wife the son of the free woman..

Ishmel was the son of a slave, illegitimate, the bastard son of an unmarried woman, a slavewoman with no legal hold or relationship with the man who sired him..just the product of a one night stand..

It doesn’t pay to get ahead of God..

but both these women did..

BTW my FReeper FRiends will tell you that I always give the source the book chapter verse from the Bible but for you well you don’t have time to look up these Bible scriptures so I wont burden you..

oh lets do look at one other one your list of verses from the book of af_vet_1981

that #6 on the list..

well ah that Jacob is a different Jacob..

This is Christmas Eve and Im thawing a turkey and getting ready for tomorrow, Christmas so I cant spend a lot of time trying to help you..

do you not realize that Jacob and Rebekah are with the LORD, and will come with Him to judge ?
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Kid again no verse from the Bible..

its not there of course..

this is Christmas and that means I like millions odf other Christians around the world celebrate the birth of the Christ Child..

that Child was God come in the flesh..

He was in heaven as the Word of God and left His Heaven to be born as a human baby the only begotton Son of the Most High God to grow up and die in my place on the Cross to save me from my sins..

The LORD Jesus Christ is my ONLY judge..

Not Rebecca, not Isaac, not Joey Smith not any other human who ever lived ..

Only the LORD Jesus Christ who was and is and is forever God...

This is Christmas Eve and Im thawing a turkey and getting ready for tomorrow, Christmas so I cant spend a lot of time trying to help you..

Is that the cooking equivalent of "I'm hopping in the shower, I'll be right back"? Haha sorry, I couldn't resist. :)

Merry Christmas!

Well I am giving the turkey a water bath !!!

:)

Yes, my error, number 6 incorrectly listed Matthew 1:6 whilst Matthew 1:2 has Abraham beg at Isaac, and Isaac begat Jacob, and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren..
Matthew 22:32 has I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Jesus' brother was called Jacob and there is a book in the Bible by that name (although you may know it as James.

Yes, God will judge with the saints (see Jude 1:14 posted previously). Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world ? 1 For 6:2

It seems you keep increasing your antagonism toward the Jewish saints, and now you have turned your accusations to Sarah. I do think it best if you retire to whatever you do do and take a rest.