You're Probably Not Saved, Yet.

Beyond Today ^ | 2013 | Various

[DouglasKC]

How do you know you're saved?

Imagine you arrive at a most important banquet that's hosted by Christ Himself. After all--you're a Christian. Picture coming to His home and walking right up to the door. Perhaps you're a little surprised that the door is closed and you're shut outside. But not to be deterred, you knock and knock. No response, no reaction. So you call out, "Jesus open the door, Lord it's me." Still, no response, no reaction. At long last, you hear Jesus' voice and He says, "I never knew you!" What a devastating and shocking situation in which to find yourself.

[American Constitutionalist]

Yes of course, chapter 6, no argument there.

However ?

That's before Paul goes into chapter 7 where he speaks of his struggles against sin no matter how hard he tries.
Then onto chapter 8 with ?
With the onset verse of ?
1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
In Romans 6 Paul basically says, yes, there is no excuse for sin, GOD FORBID IT !
But in chapter 7 ?
That struggle still remains.
Chapter 8 is what gives us hope.
We are still kept by Grace.

[DouglasKC]

Don't forget about the thief on the cross. Why should we earn someone that we already have in the here and now

Not sure why term "earn" keeps getting thrown in here. There's absolutely nothing I can do to earn salvation. However if I choose to ignore, neglect, or reject my salvation that is my choice:

Hbr 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Hbr 6:5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hbr 6:6 if they fall away,fn to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame

And this:

1Ti 4:14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.
1Ti 4:15 Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all.
1Ti 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Is Paul urging to Timothy to EARN his salvation...no...he's telling him don't neglect and in doing so he will save himself and those who preaches to.

[American Constitutionalist]

When ever you see in the bible ? Therefore ? or Wherefore ?
Make sure you know what it's there for.

Up until chapter 8 in the last 2 or 3 chapters is what leads us to Paul's final conclusion in chapter 8 when he writes " There is therefore now no condemnation " is his summary of what he has been writing in the last previous chapters as a total continual train of thought or meaning.
That's how Christians should read the bible.
For you will get the meaning and context of what the writer was saying or meant by doing that.
Romans chapter 8 verse 1 is a crescendo of what he was saying in the last previous chapters.
Yes, what he says in chapter 6 ties into what he says in chapter 8.

[American Constitutionalist]

" Hbr 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit "

Yup, that's another tried and true verse some pastors use to keep people in line and under their control in fear.

No where does it say in that verse that those people accepted, believed on, or even actually got saved.

It says, that they were " Enlighten "

You can have people to hear the Gospel and understand what it means, but never going all the way and get saved.
Remember ? these people came up from the Jewish traditions and culture and would have been mocked or thrown out of the Synagogues if they were to be found out to be Christians.
After all ? this book was written to the HEBREWS, but was written for our benefit.
These were in the mushy ground of the land of in between.
However ? if they totally and finally reject the Gospel of Christ and his Grace ? and the woowing of the Holy Spirit ? and go back in to Judaism ?
Then they can no ever be brought back to repentance ) a change of mind, or one's purpose, that's what the greek word metanoeó actually means ) onto the saving grace and salvation in Christ for they have totally and finally rejected it.

[American Constitutionalist]

DouglasKC ?

I too ? when I first got saved was in a very legalistic Church and I too was a very zealous obnoxious self righteous Christian who would condemn and point fingers at people.
Hard to believe ? isn't it ?
I too was so hard up for the law and use to get in arguments with my family to the point I was threaten to be punched in the face.
But GOD !!!!

God had to put me on a forced diet of legalism and humble me.
God had to open my eyes of my ways.

The book of Hebrews ?

Got to take it as a whole.
What is the main theme of the whole book ?
The writer was writing to Jews, who were Hebrews who may have hung out with Christan's and heard their sermons and the writer is making a desperate attempt to tell them not to go back into Judaism after hearing the Gospel.
I would go on to say that the writer in some of the chapters is not writing to born again Christians who are already saved by those people who are thinking about go back.
The writer main theme is ? who Christ speaks of better things.
How Christ is much better than the old system.
That is the constant theme in the book of Hebrews, how Christ is better than the old system of Judaism.

[American Constitutionalist]

Correction “ saved, but those people who are thinking about go back. “

[DouglasKC]

" Hbr 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit "
Yup, that's another tried and true verse some pastors use to keep people in line and under their control in fear.
No where does it say in that verse that those people accepted, believed on, or even actually got saved.

Nonsense...this is how the author addresses them:

Hebrew 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,

They are holy brethren. Partakers (the same word used in 6:14) of the calling. They've confessed Christ.

And later:

Hbr 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; Hbr 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hbr 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Again persevere to the end. It was written to CHRISTIANS. It's in the CHRISTIAN bible. Who cares if they used to be Hebrews?

These words also echo the words of Paul to Timothy which you failed to address.

[American Constitutionalist]

" These words also echo the words of Paul to Timothy which you failed to address. "

Look in the mirror..... that's what I have been asking you about :

Matthew 5:20 King James Bible

20. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[DouglasKC]

Look in the mirror..... that's what I have been asking you about : Matthew 5:20 King James Bible 20. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Okay, I love that scripture. But how do you explain what Paul said to Timothy:

1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1Ti 4:14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.
1Ti 4:15 Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all.

What "progress"? What progress can be made by study of doctrine? And mediation?

1Ti 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

WILL save. Timothy was a minister. And Paul is saying that he will be saved..in the future.

It's NOT about legalism. It's not about control. It's about what scripture warns about repeatedly...falling away from the faith.

[American Constitutionalist]

If Paul allow Timothy to go on into Timothy's mission being " unsaved " then Paul would have been much unwise and stupider than I thought.
Paul is giving Timothy a exhortation, a encouragement to keep in the word and study it and not be a slackhard.
That gift ? it could be one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit or it could have been a special gift that Timothy had in him that Paul recognized and he told Timothy to keep it going and not let it become stagnant.
It could have been the gift of knowlegde and having a great understanding of the scripture for Paul said to give him self to it.
Take heed of himself and the doctrines ?
He's telling Timothy to not negelct what he has been taught, when he has seen and learned, and don't allow anyone to lead him assray in that doctine therefore he will be saved from false teaching and those around him.
The word save here ? to save himself from those who would try to corrupt that doctrine in what he has been brought up in and corrupt the message of the Gosple.
It's not the same meaning as the word we use as " saved, or born again " but rather save as in being untainted from those who would come in and corrupt the Gosple, the doctrines and teachings of Paul that Paul entrusted to Timothy.

[American Constitutionalist]

Yeah, yeah, I know, my engish and spelling is terrible.

Correction " He's telling Timothy to not neglect what he has been taught, WHAT he has seen and learned, and don't allow anyone to lead him astray in that doctrine therefore he will be saved from false teaching and those around him.

[American Constitutionalist]

This will help you get the context of what Paul is saying in chapter 4.
Gotstha go back to the opening of his letter to Timothy.
He talks about false doctrine and endless genealogies.
Here it is, in chapter 1

1 Timothy chapter 1
Verse 3

3. As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
4. neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

He's telling Timothy to rebuke those who are teaching false doctrines and shilly genealogies.
He's warning Timothy to be aware of those who would come in and corrupt what Paul has taught.

[Elsie]

Saint Christopher

[Elsie]

Are you making the point that you don't believe the Lord asks us to be baptized based on your interpretation of this one scripture?

Why plié me with questions?

Can a ration human being determine whether St. Paul thought it was required or not?

(Using this one sentence???)

[Elsie]

He was talking to a specific person at that time.

Yet, in this very thread, we have people who will NOT acknowledge that the Lord was speaking to a specific GROUP of people when these 'commands' are trotted out to be followed.

[Elsie]

And if you learn what the Bible means when it states that David was a man after God’s own Heart,

.. the Bible states that David was a man after Bathsheba's own...

---

All these flawed individuals; what's a fella to believe???

[Elsie]

Sounds a lot like a accounting term.

Yup: referring to our DEBT that Jesus paid for us.

[Elsie]

If all these angels keep on showing up; we’re gonna have to get a bigger pinhead!

[editor-surveyor]

>> “Obedience (works) is an essential part of faith” <<

.
Obedience isn’t works. Obedience is the result of Yeshua writing his Torah on our hearts.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “This unorthodox theology” <<

.
It’s Yeshua’s Way, not theology.

All “Theology” leads to the wide gate, the path to destruction. That is exactly why 90% or more of Churchianity is headed to hell.

Yeshua taught the worship delivered to Israel at Sinai; today’s churchianity rejects Yeshua’s words out of hand, preferring man’s invented nonsense, like Christmas and Easter, both pagan to their core.