Posted on 12/12/2013 12:59:05 PM PST by DouglasKC
How do you know you're saved?
Imagine you arrive at a most important banquet that's hosted by Christ Himself. After all--you're a Christian. Picture coming to His home and walking right up to the door. Perhaps you're a little surprised that the door is closed and you're shut outside. But not to be deterred, you knock and knock. No response, no reaction. So you call out, "Jesus open the door, Lord it's me." Still, no response, no reaction. At long last, you hear Jesus' voice and He says, "I never knew you!" What a devastating and shocking situation in which to find yourself.
(Excerpt) Read more at ucg.org ...
Not brought us there...but once there God does change us and that change is to turn from being disobedient to God to becoming obedient to God:
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
Paul is talking to Christians. He says they ONCE walkded according to the power of Satan. Satan influenced them and directed and guided their thoughts and energy.
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
They once walked and conducted themselves as above. All of that is lawbreaking...the laws of God. Lust of the flesh and of the mind, wrath, etc. More are listed here:
1 Cr 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
1Cr 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Cr 6:11And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Their lives, our lives, are brought into line with God's law because the spirit of God, our Lord Christ, lives through us as much as we let him. Christ will not lust, rob or kill so when our lives fit that pattern in though, action and spirit he has dominion in our lives.
That’s the point. The standard Jesus gave was way beyond man’s abilities.
Well yes, but that first manifests as sin and rebellion against God.
Hbr 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
Hbr 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
And: Hbr 3:15 while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
Hbr 3:16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
Hbr 3:17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
The other sins ? God had already made a provision in a yearly animal sacrifice for them.
Paul outlines some of the sins that Israel committed in wilderness in 1 Corinthians 10:5-11. They were sexual sins, lusting after things, idolatry, etc. Paul clearly saw these things as examples of things they did that contributed to them never getting to the promised land. All were violations of the ten commandments as are unbelief and hardness of heart.
I did have a caveat in there explaining this...i will put restate it. This occurred the first time that gentile Christians were given the spirit of God. It also happened when the first Jewish Christians were given the spirit of God. These are the only two examples where the spirit of God was given without a laying on of the hands. Repentance is certainly assumed. Baptism came later for this gentiles.
The bottom line is that unless you were in that small group of the first Jewish Christians or that small group of the first gentile Christians then in the scriptures the normal way that Christians received the spirit of the Lord came though belief in the Christ, repentance, baptism and laying on of the hands.
Well there was Paul. He was pretty intelligent.
Luke for instance and maybe James but of the original apostles it seems that Mathew may have been some what educated, but since i am no authority its just guessing.
So a fellow man needs to touch us in order to invoke the Holy Spirit to indwell us? I ask because of this:
John 3:
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
So are you saying Jesus is a liar?
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Luke 11:9, 10 KJV
Faith is an act, or a readiness to act, based on the confidence one has in the object of their belief. Basically faith is a verb. That said, in that light how do you define works? Let me suggest you might want to be very careful.
No its not Calvinist...
Its Non-Trinitarian...
like Mormonism...
Another one here.
I think it's a given that there are laws that are written in the books of the old testament that are valid today because they are eternal laws. The ten commandments for example fall into this category.
However, now add back in the rest of what was said in the New Testament, including those scriptures already posted to you on this thread, and you get the complete picture of what the Apostle Paul was stating, that unless you believe the Gospel (Obey God) in the form of salvation delivered by Christ and fully documented in the New Testament, you will not have eternal Salvation. The obedience He requires, is accepting and believing his Gospel, His method of finding God, being born-again, Repentence and Faith, not obeying the Law, that is, unless you think you are smarter than Christ and His Apostles.
Nah of course not...I'm an idiot but I believe what I read...
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
Rev_12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
1Jn_3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 1Jn_3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1Jn_3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
1Jn_3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1Co_7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
Mat 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
The point being that when we let Christ live through us the natural result will be that we SEEM to be keeping the commandments of God. Our lives, hearts and spirit will and should conform to the spirit of Christ. It's not "us" keeping commandments....it's us letting Christ live through us.
That appears to be the new covenant norm as seen in the bible....there's a great example in Acts 8:
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
Act 8:15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Now this is interesting. They were believers. They had been baptized in the name of Jesus, but they did not have God's spirit. Why?
Act 8:17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
Act 8:20 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!
Even Simon saw that this was the way it was done and he tried to buy it.
Seeing how God doesn't change I'm thinking the safe bet is to have other believers lay hands on us and ask the Lord to give his spirit.
I ask because of this: John 3: 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
I don't think that is a statement about how someone gets the spirit of God but rather is a statement about the invisible, paranormal aspects of the spirit of God or of someone born of the spirit of God.
I'll assume that's a rhetorical question but just in case...NO I DON'T THINK JESUS IS A LIAR. :-)
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
I'm not seeing your point.
Luk 11:13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"
Of course he will. But if he meant just nilly willy then apparently every single disciple didnt' understand him because they all put conditions on it...repentance, baptism, laying on of hands. Its a free gift, but it is conditional. To my thinking I'm going to believe what the disciples thought of the matter since they were the ones that actually lived, studied and learned from Christ.
Absolutely.
This is what Jesus said:
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Luke 11:9, 10 KJV
The opening was a re-imagining of these scriptures:
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!
Yet another human believer is laying hands. I know the apostles did this and then we see situations where no hands were used. Does your church claim an apostolic tradition?
Two instances where no hands were used: The outpouring on Pentecost to the first Jewish Christians in Acts 2 and the outpouring on the first gentile Christians in Acts 10. Every other reference to how God's spirit is given (as far as I know) through the laying on of hands. I have no idea why this would be so. Perhaps it has to do with the body of Christ needing physical contact with a potential new member. I don't know. All I know that this is the biblical norm and the example preserved in scripture.
Does your church claim an apostolic tradition?
No, not if I understand the use of that term.
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