The Devilish Puppet Master of the Word-Faith Movement (Justin Peters) - Strange Fire Conference

gty.org ^ | 10-30-2013 | Justin Peters

[fishtank]

Published on Oct 30, 2013 http://www.gty.org/resources/sermon-s... ... Strange Fire, part of Grace to You's Truth Matters conference series, evaluates the doctrines, claims, and practices of the modern charismatic movement, and affirms the true Person and ministry of the Holy Spirit.

The conference features pastor and Bible teacher John MacArthur, as well as teaching or presentations by:

R.C. Sproul Steve Lawson Conrad Mbewe Tom Pennington Phil Johnson Nathan Busenitz Justin Peters Todd Friel Joni Eareckson Tada

[daniel1212]

Two that stand out to me are Smith Wigglesworth and Aimee Semple McPherson. Wigglesworth wrote about her:

I have always held both as too sensational, and have read much negative press on McPherson, but without sanctioning all she did or may have done, mosteveryone should read the documented story of McPherson's trials, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimee_Semple_McPherson#Reported_kidnapping, which dispels any notion that the media was fair and balanced then and there, or that courts ensured a fair trial. And gives a contrary story from the one i have heard.

[daniel1212]

Now tell me, if we are to judge angels, how can they possibly be serving us now??

Apart from WoF aberrations, the angels believers shall judge will most surely be the fallen ones, testfying of their wiles for the Lord's sentencing of them at the GWT judgment.

As for how can angels of God possibly be serving us now, they can because Scripture says they are "all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14)

[daniel1212]

Never heard it. I would like to see it in print to analyze it.

[WVKayaker]

I have always held both as too sensational ...

Miracles are like that...

John 6: 1 Some time after this, Jesus crossed to the far shore of the Sea of Galilee (that is, the Sea of Tiberias), 2 and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the signs he had performed by healing the sick. 3 Then Jesus went up on a mountainside and sat down with his disciples. 4 The Jewish Passover Festival was near.

5 When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?” 6 He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do.

7 Philip answered him, “It would take more than half a year’s wages to buy enough bread for each one to have a bite!”

8 Another of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, spoke up, 9 “Here is a boy with five small barley loaves and two small fish, but how far will they go among so many?”

10 Jesus said, “Have the people sit down.” There was plenty of grass in that place, and they sat down (about five thousand men were there). 11 Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish.

12 When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples, “Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted.” 13 So they gathered them and filled twelve baskets with the pieces of the five barley loaves left over by those who had eaten.

14 After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.” 15 Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.

[daniel1212]

I would have to say that 99 percent of alleged “gifts’ are completely fraudulent, especially what they refer to as “tongue-speaking,

That is the least of the gifts and easiest to fabricate, but i think "prophesying" is the most fabricated, if not deliberately. But i am not basing my argument mainly on what i see, though i believe healing is being done for one, but on Scripture.

The first comment is that, Apostles are no longer given to the church. With the death of the Apostle John, no longer are there any healing people with their mere shadow as they pass, or raising the dead as they will, or being scripture-producers.

This is a faulty argument, because these are not the only kind of miracles the apostles did, nor were miracles only done by apostles (Stephen, Phillip).

Certainly there are many gifts still given, but is there any evidence for any of these people still being out there?

Certainly, is an honest reasonable appraisal. I went thru this some time ago with a stubborn cessationist here. See here , (and links) and here . Many you can watch here i think can be reasonable held true.

Do any heal as they want? Or do we all pray, and wait patiently, till God heals, if HE will?

That God's will to always heal is not Scriptural, but the decrease in miracles testifies to the poor condition of the church, not to cessationism.

A little girl in Cambodia might start speaking English miraculously and convert a man, never to do it again. But a Pentecostal in his opium-den of a church has not done it even once.

Opium-den? Not in my experience, and which i think indicates a lack of objectively, while there was no record of tongues being used to preach the gospel after Acts 2, but as a prayer language there is only affirmation. But i think even the Corinthians would reprove most of us today.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“That is the least of the gifts and easiest to fabricate,”

---

Indeed, and that is the reason why they emphasize it the most.

“This is a faulty argument, because these are not the only kind of miracles the apostles did, nor were miracles only done by apostles (Stephen, Phillip).”

---

This is true, but my argument isn’t that, it is that there are no men out there whom we can point to and say ‘That man is an Apostle, don’t lie to him otherwise you might drop dead.” Or whose words are authoritative as scripture. This calling has been completely closed. It is no longer given. It is utterly “ceased.” Now if that is ceased, you cannot claim that ALL the gifts of the Spirit are still given, but are merely lacking because of apostasy. Though the scripture does not explain this at all, it also teaches us that “blessed are they who have not seen, who still believed,” and so such miracles, in reality, aren’t even important, at least compared to the miracle that occurs in a man’s heart, effecting his conversion.

“Opium-den? Not in my experience, and which i think indicates a lack of objectively, while there was no record of tongues being used to preach the gospel after Acts 2, but as a prayer language there is only affirmation. But i think even the Corinthians would reprove most of us today.”

---

I say “opium dens” since they traffic in emotional highs. Guys like Marjoe Gortner can recreate the ‘revival’ conditions and have people shaking and speaking in tongues, or even getting “healed” by his touch for their various aches or pains.

[daniel1212]

This is true, but my argument isn’t that, it is that there are no men out there whom we can point to and say ‘That man is an Apostle, don’t lie to him otherwise you might drop dead.” Or whose words are authoritative as scripture. This calling has been completely closed. It is no longer given. It is utterly “ceased.” Now if that is ceased, you cannot claim that ALL the gifts of the Spirit are still given, but are merely lacking because of apostasy.

Your conclusion does not follow your premise. Having no more apostles like those of the 1st century with such overt attestation would not equate to cessation of any gifts, as an apostle is an office, and the gifts listed in 1Cor 12 cover what was done thru others besides apostles, as in "the working of miracles." One may argue certain kinds of miracles ceased, but that does not mean the gift ceased. And God did specific miracles before Christ came that neither He or the apostles did (and one they wanted to do).

so such miracles, in reality, aren’t even important, at least compared to the miracle that occurs in a man’s heart, effecting his conversion.

That is affirmed.

I say “opium dens” since they traffic in emotional highs. Guys like Marjoe Gortner

Never heard of him. But that this prevails too much is a given. Yet even in revivals under Edwards you had aberrations, which must be overcome by the real thing.

[daniel1212]

You posted some good research lately BTW.

Have a God night.

[redleghunter]

Just read 2 Corinthians 5 tonight. Your tagline fits!

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“Your conclusion does not follow your premise. Having no more apostles like those of the 1st century with such overt attestation would not equate to cessation of any gifts, as an apostle is an office,”

---

Perhaps it’s because I’ve spent too long with Pentecostals that I cannot shake off the old way of thinking, which makes my arguments hard to understand on this matter. I am not arguing that any miracles have ceased. I affirm that a person could be raised from the dead within the next few minutes because a Christian prayed and God answered. My argument is, however, that certain offices and the gifts given to those offices have ceased, or at least the way in which they are given, so that a person might, perhaps, pray for a healing, but does not have the “office” of being a healer. There is a tremendous distinction between how Christians operate today and how they operated during the Apostolic age, which I think is lost on most Charismatics and even MacArthur himself.

If God sends out ‘first Apostles, then Prophets, then teachers, then gifts of miracles,” etc, we can affirm that at the very least the very first “office” that is given, that of Apostles, has ceased. In the same way, we can say (though I admit, without support,) that Prophets have ceased, and healers and tongue-speakers, though God might still heal, and give a man a tongue, or give a vision, perhaps to some Muslim somewhere in order to convert him. But these miracles are not done in the same way they were done during the Apostolic age, with no one actually operating in the “office” of any of these, and able to perform them at will, or even without his “will” knowing, like healing with a shadow. Nor are any even guaranteed to occur for those who ask of them, since God, quite clearly, has ceased many of them, or at least performs them rarely, and asks us to live by faith and not by sight. And not because of Christian apostasy (there has never been an age where there has not been apostasy, as far as I can tell, nor an age where there has never been a faithful elect of God in the midst of them), but because, for whatever reason, He has seen fit not to give them anymore.

I admit the scripture does not support a strict cessationism, but it also does not allow for ALL these offices to still be in effect, and given freely to the church.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

Oh, Marjoe Gortner by the way was a stage performer brought up in a con-artist family. They marketed him as a sort of mini-faith healer, when he was just a little kid, and went off on revival meetings across the country for many years.

You can find his documentary online, probably on You Tube, where he went on a final ‘revival crusade,” but as a cynical, faithless fellow, who blatantly went around playing with people’s emotions and faith in order to draw in money. These events, where a known infidel is performing “miracles” of alleged healings and the like, causing people to speak in tongues, or receive a separate (to salvation) “baptism of the Holy Spirit,” are identical to what occurs in many Pentecostal churches.

[metmom]

Hebrews where it says that angels are ministering servants sent to minister to the heirs of salvation.

[metmom]

I know the type very well as I've had to undo their cruelly inflicted damage before. Joni is a very grounded down to earth person with a long time ministry to those with disabilities.

Been there, done that, had to work through it myself.

I have no use for the Pentecostal movement despite the fact that I have friends who speak in tongues.

[metmom]

Well said.

Seems that Pentecostals as a whole are woefully ignorant of 1 Corinthians 12 and 14.

[metmom]

That God's will to always heal is not Scriptural, but the decrease in miracles testifies to the poor condition of the church, not to cessationism.

That will ruffle some Pentecostal feathers.

I've been told that it's always God's will for us to be healed. After all, no one is sick in heaven and *Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven*, therefore it is GOd's will for us to be healed. All we have to do is believe it and it's ours.

And if it doesn't happen, then there must be sin in our lives, or generational curses, or not enough faith, etc ad nauseum.

As for me, for all the years of talking to God about my food issues, He finally told me that *I'm working on something greater*, which is good enough for me.

[metmom]

There have been cases of unbelievers who have been willing to be hypnotized to fall down at the sound of certain words (like “FIRE!”) and they do.

I see the power of suggestion being very strong in the Pentecostal types.

[metmom]

As I was sitting in church one day watching all the *painful* shoulders and knees being *healed*, thinking skeptical and critical thoughts about how we don’t see any verifiable healings but things that can be written off as psychosomatic, God chastised me, pointing out that while no doubt that is true, I cannot discount that in there there could be some real, genuine healings occurring.

However, in the Pentecostal movement, I see way too much emphasis on the Holy Spirit and the manifestations than I do on Jesus, who is the one to be lifted up. And God’s sovereignty is not much a topic of discussion.

[fishtank]

My concern is not about the miracles and gifts.

My concern is about ‘preachers’ saying that we are “little gods”, or that Jesus did not pay for all our sins on the cross.

With those two DEVILISH teachings alone, the WoF teachers are as bad or worse than lds.

[daniel1212]

Perhaps it’s because I’ve spent too long with Pentecostals that I cannot shake off the old way of thinking,

I understand, but we must try to judge in the light of Scripture despite from negative experiences because of aberrations. Would you be comfortable in the 1Cor. 14 meeting if done as per Paul's rules?

My argument is, however, that certain offices and the gifts given to those offices have ceased,

I see only you arguing that one office ceased, that of the apostles, which is one of the formal position offices listed in Eph. 4:11 of itself and which they occupied other offices listed there, but the "sign" gifts of 1Cor. 12:4-11 are not tied to that office, but empower those who do what Rm. 12:6-8 speaks of.

But these miracles are not done in the same way they were done during the Apostolic age, with no one actually operating in the “office” of any of these, and able to perform them at will, or even without his “will” knowing, like healing with a shadow.

Again, since no one in the NT was made alive by touching the bones of a dead prophet, or made iron to swim, or since none of the apostles made a man to see by applying a mud patch made with holy saliva, then you could argue those gifts ceased as well.

Nor are any even guaranteed to occur for those who ask of them, since God, quite clearly, has ceased many of them, or at least performs them rarely, and asks us to live by faith and not by sight.

Nothing was ever guaranteed to occur for those who ask of them, thus Paul's petition was denied thrice. And the relatively rare occurrence of real miracles today can be explained as being due to the state of the church, and the hardened hearts today.

I admit the scripture does not support a strict cessationism, but it also does not allow for ALL these offices to still be in effect, and given freely to the church.

Rather, the only formal office that i see you disallowing is that of apostle and prophet, while the offices of evangelists; pastors and teachers (Eph. 4:11) continue, and i cannot disallow prophesy despite the many wannebees, nor of the rest of the giftings which empower ministering, teaching, exhortation, administration, and shewing mercy. (Romans 12:6-8)

And i think if we were in Africa and other places you would see far more evidence of God supernaturally working in confirming His word, (Mk. 16:20) and combating the devil. Which is needed more today. If we do not seek this then we have a different idea of the church of the living - and loving - God than that of the book of Acts.

[daniel1212]

You can find his documentary online, probably on You Tube, where he went on a final ‘revival crusade,” but as a cynical, faithless fellow, who blatantly went around playing with people’s emotions and faith in order to draw in money.

Certainty such exist, but the proliferation of counterfeit $10 bills does not warrant throwing out the real ones.