“That is the least of the gifts and easiest to fabricate,”
Indeed, and that is the reason why they emphasize it the most.
“This is a faulty argument, because these are not the only kind of miracles the apostles did, nor were miracles only done by apostles (Stephen, Phillip).”
This is true, but my argument isn’t that, it is that there are no men out there whom we can point to and say ‘That man is an Apostle, don’t lie to him otherwise you might drop dead.” Or whose words are authoritative as scripture. This calling has been completely closed. It is no longer given. It is utterly “ceased.” Now if that is ceased, you cannot claim that ALL the gifts of the Spirit are still given, but are merely lacking because of apostasy. Though the scripture does not explain this at all, it also teaches us that “blessed are they who have not seen, who still believed,” and so such miracles, in reality, aren’t even important, at least compared to the miracle that occurs in a man’s heart, effecting his conversion.
“Opium-den? Not in my experience, and which i think indicates a lack of objectively, while there was no record of tongues being used to preach the gospel after Acts 2, but as a prayer language there is only affirmation. But i think even the Corinthians would reprove most of us today.”
I say “opium dens” since they traffic in emotional highs. Guys like Marjoe Gortner can recreate the ‘revival’ conditions and have people shaking and speaking in tongues, or even getting “healed” by his touch for their various aches or pains.
Your conclusion does not follow your premise. Having no more apostles like those of the 1st century with such overt attestation would not equate to cessation of any gifts, as an apostle is an office, and the gifts listed in 1Cor 12 cover what was done thru others besides apostles, as in "the working of miracles." One may argue certain kinds of miracles ceased, but that does not mean the gift ceased. And God did specific miracles before Christ came that neither He or the apostles did (and one they wanted to do).
so such miracles, in reality, aren’t even important, at least compared to the miracle that occurs in a man’s heart, effecting his conversion.
That is affirmed.
I say “opium dens” since they traffic in emotional highs. Guys like Marjoe Gortner
Never heard of him. But that this prevails too much is a given. Yet even in revivals under Edwards you had aberrations, which must be overcome by the real thing.
You posted some good research lately BTW.
Have a God night.
There have been cases of unbelievers who have been willing to be hypnotized to fall down at the sound of certain words (like “FIRE!”) and they do.
I see the power of suggestion being very strong in the Pentecostal types.
As I was sitting in church one day watching all the *painful* shoulders and knees being *healed*, thinking skeptical and critical thoughts about how we don’t see any verifiable healings but things that can be written off as psychosomatic, God chastised me, pointing out that while no doubt that is true, I cannot discount that in there there could be some real, genuine healings occurring.
However, in the Pentecostal movement, I see way too much emphasis on the Holy Spirit and the manifestations than I do on Jesus, who is the one to be lifted up. And God’s sovereignty is not much a topic of discussion.