Contrary to what some have suggested in their comments on Part 1, these posts are NOT about dissension and discord. As I commented on the previous thread:
On the contrary, the purpose of this thread is to encourage Bible Christians to pull together, to prayerfully reflect on what they have been taught. The word "truth" appears in the Bible, in the singular. There can be only one Truth. If anything, the erroneous theory of sola scriptura has split and divided the christian community into thousands of communities.According to Scripture, Christ wanted us to be one (John 17:22-23). We are all as a Church to be of one mind and to think the same (Philippians 2:2; Romans 15:5). There is only to be one "faith" (Ephesians 4:3-6), not many.
Nyer, your questions about the Bible certainly do bring up interesting thought. Here are my thoughts on the subject.....
I think the reason it took me until age 27 to realize a real relationship with my Lord and Savior (even though I professed belief since childhood), was because I tend to want to fully analyze everything. Normally that was a good procedure, but apparently God is way to complicated for the mere human mind to analyze.
It was when I actually got on my knees and said, “Lord, I give up all to you, I don’t deserve your blessing, your Grace, but I want it and know that only You can give it to me. And, Lord, I want MORE. I see a beauty and total “peace” in the eyes and life of some of my friends. I want that too. My Heavenly Father responded by introducing me to the Holy Spirit (His third Person). I know the Holy Spirit was in my heart already, but I was not listening to Him and allowing Him to control my life.
At that point reading and studying my Bible became a whole new experience. I came to realize how it is the “living Word of God”. It was not so much that someone told me that truth, or that I read it...... it was just a deep and abiding understanding that the Holy Spirit began showing and teaching me. It was not something that I had the capability to understand before, it was another gift God was giving me. The Word penetrated my life and exposed my soul, showing me what was right and wrong. I had read it before, but without full understanding, and now each time I read it, I understand more and more. Like a loving patient teacher, God continues to show me what I need to know and what I can understand as time goes on.
My Bible is a precious possession, but not magical or something to be kept under glass so as to not ruin it. Rather, it is a living part of my life, quite worn, full of notes in the margins, some questions that I know God will answer when He knows I am ready to understand.
And all that .... I take on pure FAITH, just as I take God the Father, Jesus the Son and Savior, and the Holy Spirit (the Trinity) on FAITH. Not because a book told me, but because He continues to prove it to me day after day. Nothing in the book (the living Word) has ever proven to be contradictory or untrue, on the contrary, it proves to be more true the longer I believe. I no longer NEED or require logical proof or material evidence, yet the more I don’t need proof, the more proof the Father continues to show me.
I will pray that you and others reading this thread and frustrated over not being able to answer the questions you have presented, will turn in FAITH to our Heavenly Father, open your hearts and minds to Him, and in time begin to understand the answers.
If there is a God who created Time then the Earth and then Man and placed them all in it and then He wanted a book with certain things in it that Men must know then THOSE things ARE in that Book. Period.
“Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?
What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him
Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?”
He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.” [John 6: 49-71]
The bible hating continues.
There is only one way a person could know that...And that is by reading and believing the bible...
And since you make it clear that you do neither, the question then is directed at you and all other Catholics...And sadly, you can't answer that question with any authority...
And that's apparently why you have the rest of these goofy questions...No bible knowledge...No spiritual enlightenment...
I am not a Bible scholar, but have sat under several of them. One magazine that gives a LOT of historical references as well as antiquities references is Touchstone Magazine. Some of the best minds write on things such as this and one of my favorite writers is Anthony Esolen, a professor of English Literature. I have years of these magazines and they eventually talk about almost anything one could want more information on. You can find the online version of the magazine, as well. www.touchstonemag.com
I urge you to find this and start reading. We can argue about the past all we want. Some of it is okay, but our Enemy, Satan, also uses it to separate and divide us, right now when we need unity and an outpouring of God’s love amongst one another and to the lost. Dear friends, please remember that those we diss here are also God’s creation and He still seeks to win their souls until the day they take their last breath. Remember that we are all sinners, saved by grace...those of us who have accepted God’s grace and His salvation. The Enemy has always had some victories in the past...even in every truly Christian denomination, so we need to put the knives back in the drawer and look for ways to work together for His kingdom. May God’s grace abound.
Scripture is what it is, the Word of God, but Scripture does not claim to be the only way God communicates with us, beginning with the Apostles, then St Paul.
Seems like a lot of hatred for the scriptures! I guess my questions for the “Non-Bible Christian” would be:
Why do you fear the scriptures?
Why is it that reading the scriptures, in the vernacular, tends to cause folks to reject Catholicism in droves?
What makes you value the statements of a Pope over the Word of God?
Why do you distort the history of the canon & pretend the New Testament wasn’t in use long before any ‘councils’ gave it credence?
Nice little pile of Straw questions!
“Have you ceased to beat your spouse?”
“23. Why do Protestants follow postapostolic Jewish decisions on the boundaries of the Old Testament canon, rather than the decision of the Church founded by Jesus Christ? “
What church was that...the Roman or Orthodox church, what do you mean by “the one church”, define the statement? Given the State of Roman Catholicism, perhaps the Orthodox is the church folks should “return to”, if any “such return” is warranted by any “true Christian” at all?
“21. Who in the Church had the authority to determine which books belonged in the New Testament canon and to make this decision binding on all Christians? If nobody has this authority, then can I remove or add books to the canon on my own authority? “
The tricky detail in this question comes from the fact that it was councils of learned men and leaders who each had their own followings of Christians who supported them and their views...the detail in question would be to determine if they were Spirit led.
If they were Spirit Led, then they would have ultimately put together a working library of books that would not diminish but rather enhance the teaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If these councils had countenanced these books as being reflective of God’s breathed word then it was the intention of these councils that these collected works be considered as the cornerstone foundational orthodoxy of the church that would enable folks to know between the spiritual charlatan and a true child of Grace.
A true test as to whether these works can be trusted in the Sola Scriptura ‘sense” would have been their use by the Holy Spirit to convict men of their sins, and to correct an errant believer and bring him back to grace. Since millions of believers can attest to the particular power the bible has had in delivering them from darkness by the grace of God...I would say these Early councils had been well led by the Holy Spirit!
“say God created the world/universe out of nothing?”
Question is not phrased correctly....God invented both “dark and light” and he had to create “nothingness” with which to contrast “somethingness”?
The Bible says he created all things...even “nothingness”!
Perhaps you should consider reading the Bible, where you can find the answer to many of these questions. Other than that, Paul advises us to avoid foolish questions, which would cover those questions not covered within the pages of the Bible itself.
Just found this thread- way past my bedtime...
VERY interesting thread..enjoying reading- will have to finish over the weekend- but I wanted to just say something for everyone’s sake- those reading and posting here.
Jesus told us that the only way to the Father- to eternal life- was through Him. The entire purpose of Jesus Christ was for us to be saved. I don’t think Jesus would have been coy or cryptic. He does not say the way to salvation is through any specific church. HE is the church. I do not presume to think for a minute that any Catholic is not saved. Or any Protestant is not saved.
No Pope, no pastor, no man has the authority to challenge Jesus. Jesus wanted ALL to be saved. he could have very easily dropped the name of the ONE TRUE CHURCH. OH! He did- HIM! HE IS THE ONE TRUE CHURCH. Jesus was clear. He is the way, and ONLY HIM!
Thanks for the thread! I am sincerely enjoying it.
“You have to understand that the canon was not the result of a series of contests involving church politics. The canon is rather the separation that came about because of the intuitive insight of Christian believers. They could hear the Good Shepherd in the Gospel of John; they could hear it only muffled and distorted way in the Gospel of Thomas mixed in with a lot of other things.
“When the pronouncement was made about the canon, it merely ratified what the general sensitivity of the church had already determined. You see, the canon is a list of authoritative books more than it is an authoritative list of books. These documents didn’t derive their authority from being selected; each one was authoritative before anyone gathered them together. The early church merely listened and sensed that these were authoritative accounts.
“For somebody now to say that the canon emerged only after councils and synods made these pronouncements would be like saying, ‘Let’s get several academies of musicians to make a pronouncement that the music of Bach and Beethoven is wonderful.’ I would say, ‘Thank you for nothing! We knew it because of sensitivity to what is good music and what is not. The same with the canon.” Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, Ph.D.
23. Why do Protestants follow postapostolic Jewish decisions on the boundaries of the Old Testament canon, rather than the decision of the Church founded by Jesus Christ?
It appears the Lord Jesus Christ set the Canon for the Old Testament in Luke 24:44 long before the Roman Catholic.
Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2001). (Lk 24:44–45). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
#33. Jesus said that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to the world that He had been sent by God (John 17:20-23). How can the world see an invisible “unity” that exists only in the hearts of believers?