Questions for "Bible Christians" that they can't answer - Part 2

Catholic Convert ^ | October 27, 2013 | David Palm and Steve Ray

[NYer]

There are 38 questions + a few bonus questions. I have split them into two separate posts of 20 and 18 + bonus questions. In case you missed it, here is the link to Part 1. Are you ready?

21. Who in the Church had the authority to determine which books belonged in the New Testament canon and to make this decision binding on all Christians? If nobody has this authority, then can I remove or add books to the canon on my own authority?

22. Why do Protestant scholars recognize the early Church councils at Hippo and Carthage as the first instances in which the New Testament canon was officially ratified, but ignore the fact that those same councils ratified the Old Testament canon used by the Catholic Church today but abandoned by Protestants at the Reformation?

23. Why do Protestants follow postapostolic Jewish decisions on the boundaries of the Old Testament canon, rather than the decision of the Church founded by Jesus Christ?

24. How were the bishops at Hippo and Carthage able to determine the correct canon of Scripture, in spite of the fact that they believed all the distinctively Catholic doctrines such as the apostolic succession of bishops, the sacrifice of the Mass, Christ’s Real Presence in the Eucharist, baptismal regeneration, etc?

25. If Christianity is a “book religion,” how did it flourish during the first 1500 years of Church history when the vast majority of people were illiterate?

26. How could the Apostle Thomas establish the church in India that survives to this day (and is now in communion with the Catholic Church) without leaving them with one word of New Testament Scripture?

27. If sola Scriptura is so solid and biblically based, why has there never been a full treatise written in its defense since the phrase was coined in the Reformation?

28. If Jesus intended for Christianity to be exclusively a “religion of the book,” why did He wait 1400 years before showing somebody how to build a printing press?

29. If the early Church believed in sola Scriptura, why do the creeds of the early Church always say “we believe in the Holy Catholic Church,” and not “we believe in Holy Scripture”?

30. If the Bible is as clear as Martin Luther claimed, why was he the first one to interpret it the way he did and why was he frustrated at the end of his life that “there are now as many doctrines as there are heads”?

31. The time interval between the Resurrection and the establishment of the New Testament canon in AD 382 is roughly the same as the interval between the arrival of the Mayflower in America and the present day. Therefore, since the early Christians had no defined New Testament for almost four hundred years, how did they practice sola Scriptura?

32. If the Bible is the only foundation and basis of Christian truth, why does the Bible itself say that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15)?

33. Jesus said that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to the world that He had been sent by God (John 17:20-23). How can the world see an invisible "unity" that exists only in the hearts of believers?

34. If the unity of Christians was meant to convince the world that Jesus was sent by God, what does the ever-increasing fragmentation of Protestantism say to the world?

35. Hebrews 13:17 says, "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you." What is the expiration date of this verse? When did it become okay not only to disobey the Church's leaders, but to rebel against them and set up rival churches?

36. The Koran explicitly claims divine inspiration, but the New Testament books do not. How do you know that the New Testament books are nevertheless inspired, but the Koran is not?

37. How does a Protestant know for sure what God thinks about moral issues such as abortion, masturbation, contraceptives, eugenics, euthanasia, etc.?

38. What is one to believe when one Protestant says infants should be baptized (e.g., Luther and Calvin) and another says it is wrong and unbiblical (e.g., Baptists and Evangelicals)?

A Few Bonus Questions

Where does the Bible . . .

. . . say God created the world/universe out of nothing?

. . . say salvation is attainable through faith alone?

. . . tell us how we know that the revelation of Jesus Christ ended with the death of the last Apostle?

. . . provide a list of the canonical books of the Old Testament?

. . . provide a list of the canonical books of the New Testament?

. . . explain the doctrine of the Trinity, or even use the word “Trinity”?

. . . tell us the name of the “beloved disciple”?

. . . inform us of the names of the authors of the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John?

. . . who wrote the Book of Acts?

. . . tell us the Holy Spirit is one of the three Persons of the Trinity?

. . . .tell us Jesus Christ was both fully God and fully man from the moment of conception (e.g. how do we know His Divinity wasn't infused later in His life?) and/or tells us Jesus Christ is One Person with two complete natures, human and Divine and not some other combination of the two natures (i.e., one or both being less than complete)?

. . . that the church should, or someday would be divided into competing and disagreeing denominations?

. . . that Protestants can have an invisible unity when Jesus expected a visible unity to be seen by the world (see John 17)?

. . . tell us Jesus Christ is of the same substance of Divinity as God the Father?

[NYer]

When RCs say ...

It seems that no matter how many attempts are made to correct you, your misinterpretation persists.

The Catholic Church

The "R" represents one portion of the Catholic Church, which is comprised of 22 Churches.

Conveniently, they ignore the lists some of the early church fathers wrote (i.e., Ireneaus, Tertullian, Origen) that DO usually identify the books accepted by the early Christians and recognized as well as read and studied by them.

"Although dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, the Church has received this faith from the apostles and their disciples....  The Church received this preaching and this faith.  Although she is scattered throughout the whole world, yet, she carefully preserves it, as if she occupied only one house.   She also believes these points just as if she had only one soul, and one and the same heart.  She proclaims these things, teaches them, and hands them down, with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth.  For although the languages of the world are different, yet the significance of the tradition is one and the same.   For the churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different.  Neither do those in Spain, Gaul, the East, Egypt, Libya, or in the central regions of the world."  St. Irenaeus ("Against All Heresies," c. 180 A.D.)

[boatbums]

It seems that no matter how many attempts are made to correct you, your misinterpretation persists.

And why should I accept your "correction"???

I made no "misinterpretation" since what I said was correct. When threads get posted to provoke Catholic versus Protestant wars, they SHOULD be rebutted and the truth always is victorious. The biggest mistakes Catholics make today - and the authors of this thread article are no different - is to presume what the "church" believed and followed at the start is the same as what bills itself as the Catholic Church today. In truth - and any honest person would have to concede - many of the dogmas and doctrines held by the Roman church today were UNHEARD of in Irenaeus', Tertullian's and Origen's day. The same goes for Augustine and even Aquinas. Another mistake is to assume that Christians cannot exist outside of Roman Catholicism. We do and we THRIVE in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Here's a thought...why not post threads that glorify Christ instead of a "church"? Why not edify instead of causing dissension? Why not demonstrate a heart of Christian love that draws people to Christ instead of repelling those who refuse to worship at the same church?

[verga]

The forum has rules, we are all subject to them. No one forces you to disobey them.

[verga]

Isaiah 45:7 says: “Forming light and creating darkness..I am the LORD that does all these.

yep poetic license is a wonderful thing. that does not alter the fact that darkness is the absence of light. And the darkness we experience is due to(created by) the Earths rotation on it's axis.

[CynicalBear]

I can’t even imagine putting faith in some organization that has those duplicitous sets of beliefs and all in print. Yet so many blindly follow as if oblivious.

[smvoice]

The Catholic Church is what happens when a group of people decide that God is not through giving us His revelations. They think it’s an ongoing process, that He isn’t through yet. It’s a dangerous and deceitful game to play.

[metmom]

1984

[Heart-Rest]

CynicalBear, in your post #517, you are pulling these "one-liner" quotes totally out of context and drastically changing what they really mean, falsely claiming they mean something which they clearly do not mean when read in their true context.

Let me show you how that works.

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I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.     Matthew 10:34

Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you     John 14:27

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Did Jesus just get all wishy-washy, or contradict Himself (in reality), or are these two statements taken completely out of context (the same way you took all your quotes out of context, changing their real meanings completely)?

Here's another example:

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When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went and met him.     John 11:20

Then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones.     Deuteronomy 22:24

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Does this mean Martha and Jesus should be taken out to the gate of the city, and stoned to death?    Do you see how false and crazy various statements placed together sound, when they're shamelessly taken out of context, and deceitfully and dishonestly put together in a new way that totally and deviously changes and distorts their entire meaning?    (That's the way Satan quotes scripture, and other things, completely distorting their meanings.)

Let me show you an example now directly from your post.

Part of your own false chain of statements from various sources includes Paragraph 841 of the "Catechism of the Catholic Church", which you falsely claim means that Muslims can be saved, without any other kinds of qualifying activities or statements.    The truth is, the paragraphs before and after 841 in the Catechism provide numerous qualifiers which plainly show what that statement in Paragraph 841 really means.    (And, yes, Muslims can be saved, as can atheists, and anyone else.    Our Savior came to seek and to save that which was lost, and God can save anybody.)    These paragraphs from the Catechism show various starting points for evangelizing folks from these various groups, but insists that though they have not yet received the Gospel, we should continue to work to evangelize them in order to help them get to the point where they can receive the Gospel.    God will decide who is to be saved, and who is not to be saved.

Here is that paragraph in context.    Please read it honestly this time.

The Church and non-Christians

839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”325 (856, 63, 147) The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 “the first to hear the Word of God.”327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”;328 “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus. (674, 597)

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”330

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: (360) All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city.... 331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”332 (28, 856)

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: (29) Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334 (30, 953, 1219)

846 “Outside the Church there is no salvation”    How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: (161, 1257) Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”338 (1260)

SOURCE: "Catechism of the Catholic Church"

By the way, CynicalBear, do you know what King David did to bears when he was a shepherd, and a bear tried to steal sheep out of his flock?

Here's that Bible story:

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But David said to Saul, “Your servant used to keep sheep for his father; and when there came a lion, or a bear, and took a lamb from the flock, I went after him and smote him and delivered it out of his mouth; and if he arose against me, I caught him by his beard, and smote him and killed him. Your servant has killed both lions and bears.     1 Samuel 17:34-36

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While I'm pretty certain that the "Good Shepherd" won't take that kind of drastic action, I still don't think He appreciates attempts by anyone to steal His sheep from His true flock very much either.     :-)

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Link    --    "Catholic Conversion Stories"    --    (   With    ♫  Uplifting Music   ♫  )

[CynicalBear]

Yep, read it all. Got news for ya. The Muslims don’t serve the same God as I do, faith in Jesus is still the only means of salvation and other religions aren’t somehow a “preparation”. That wishy washy nonsense the RCC has will not end well for those who follow it. OH, and trying to intimidate me by somehow claiming that people who leave the Catholic Church are lost won’t cut it either. The RCC tried to play that Daniel role and it didn’t turn out well for them.

[terycarl]

God commanded an Israelite man who was divorcing his wife to give her a WRITTEN certificate of divorce. I guess God didn’t know that all those Israelites were supposed to be illiterate.....

scribes were hired to read and write things....get real!

[terycarl]

No serious learning is done by text alone. Does someone who just reads medical texts without apprenticeship qualify as a physician?

[terycarl]

Paul commended the Bereans because they “searched the scriptures daily”. What do Catholics think those scriptures were? Peter called the writings of Paul scripture. Do Catholics honestly think that those writings weren’t disseminated widely since they were considered to be equal to the Old Testament?

it's good Friday...Jesus is beine crucified.....one month passes.....the apostles have been given the command to go forth and teach all nations......where did the Bereans get the Scriptures that they were searching????except for the old testament scriptures, no one had anything of the new testament to study....except for Catholic "tradition" there was nothing else available to anyone. The new Christian religion was taught by word of mouth for probably many years before there was an organized package of written material to teach from....my estimate would be 100-200 years. They weren't teaching from the Bible, you know, because there wasn't such a thing for a long, long time after Christ. The writings og the apostles, disciples, Paaul, etc. weren't available on Easter Sunday....it took many years for them to be written and even more years for them to be disseminated

[terycarl]

>>remember, at the time there were only Catholics and pagans<< Only in Catholic mythology.

in this discussion, there were only Catholics, Jews, and pagans....yes there were, elsewhere, oriental hindus etc, but they don't pertain to the birth of Christianity.....for this purpose, there were Catholics, Jews, and Pagans.

[terycarl]

If the message that the Catholic church preaches can't stand on its own merit as being worthwhile in and of itself, then it's not worth listening to.

oh good grief, have you never heard of a grand opening, or a sale, or any other incentive to get you into the store???????

you would say, "just open the store, if it is worthwhile, people will flock to it"

you would ignore the fact that the people had been shopping at the competitors store for ????thousand years.

[terycarl]

What an idiotic statement! The apostles wrote them; why would they need copies of their own letters? The individual believers are the ones that were making copies of them; where do you think all the thousands of MS copies came from?

you have no idea of what went on in those days, do you???If one Apostle wanted to relate the letters of another Apostle, he would either have memorized (tradition) that message or required a written copy of it.

since written copies were virtually impossible to come by, tradition seems to be the way that the messages were transmitted to the people.

Paul wanted to tell his audience of the wonderful teachings of Peter....do you suppose that he went to Peter and asked for a transcription of his last sermon??????????????

[terycarl]

The individual believers are the ones that were making copies of them;

the individual believers could neither read nor write....where do you think these meetings took place, Harvard, Columbia University???....these were shepherds, local merchants, people on the streets....they couldn't read books...there were no books to read.....I'm willing to bet that Peter, the fisherman, could only speak 1 language, and that he could neither read nor write.

you have to realize that these people were in the B.C. time period....yes, they were intelligent, but no, they were not schooled in reading nor writing.

[terycarl]

Imagine, searching the scriptures daily, on our own, to see if those things were so! Dangerous grounds if you ask me..

without the Catholic Church, you would have no Scriptures to search.....except maybe old testament ones...

[terycarl]

The church is that invisible mystic body of true believers

believers in what?? without the Catholic Church, you wouldn't even know who Jesus was....do you suppose that the Jewish population would have brought you up to date???

the Catholic church brought the Christian religion through the ages....there was no one else around to do so....you don't have to like it, you just have to accept it.

[terycarl]

He does not claim to be saving the masses, but a small remnant to enjoy his rest.

does that even make a little bit of sense to you???

so God created the majority of mankind to not enjoy salvation and Heaven????

please.....

[terycarl]

Again we see the inconsistency of Catholic teaching and thought in that the very Scripture Catholics deny as authoritative is being used in an authoritative way to give their church its authority. That's pulling themselves up by their boot straps.

the Catholic church is on top and has no need to pull herself up by anything.