Questions for "Bible Christians" that they can't answer - Part 2

Catholic Convert ^ | October 27, 2013 | David Palm and Steve Ray

[NYer]

There are 38 questions + a few bonus questions. I have split them into two separate posts of 20 and 18 + bonus questions. In case you missed it, here is the link to Part 1. Are you ready?

21. Who in the Church had the authority to determine which books belonged in the New Testament canon and to make this decision binding on all Christians? If nobody has this authority, then can I remove or add books to the canon on my own authority?

22. Why do Protestant scholars recognize the early Church councils at Hippo and Carthage as the first instances in which the New Testament canon was officially ratified, but ignore the fact that those same councils ratified the Old Testament canon used by the Catholic Church today but abandoned by Protestants at the Reformation?

23. Why do Protestants follow postapostolic Jewish decisions on the boundaries of the Old Testament canon, rather than the decision of the Church founded by Jesus Christ?

24. How were the bishops at Hippo and Carthage able to determine the correct canon of Scripture, in spite of the fact that they believed all the distinctively Catholic doctrines such as the apostolic succession of bishops, the sacrifice of the Mass, Christ’s Real Presence in the Eucharist, baptismal regeneration, etc?

25. If Christianity is a “book religion,” how did it flourish during the first 1500 years of Church history when the vast majority of people were illiterate?

26. How could the Apostle Thomas establish the church in India that survives to this day (and is now in communion with the Catholic Church) without leaving them with one word of New Testament Scripture?

27. If sola Scriptura is so solid and biblically based, why has there never been a full treatise written in its defense since the phrase was coined in the Reformation?

28. If Jesus intended for Christianity to be exclusively a “religion of the book,” why did He wait 1400 years before showing somebody how to build a printing press?

29. If the early Church believed in sola Scriptura, why do the creeds of the early Church always say “we believe in the Holy Catholic Church,” and not “we believe in Holy Scripture”?

30. If the Bible is as clear as Martin Luther claimed, why was he the first one to interpret it the way he did and why was he frustrated at the end of his life that “there are now as many doctrines as there are heads”?

31. The time interval between the Resurrection and the establishment of the New Testament canon in AD 382 is roughly the same as the interval between the arrival of the Mayflower in America and the present day. Therefore, since the early Christians had no defined New Testament for almost four hundred years, how did they practice sola Scriptura?

32. If the Bible is the only foundation and basis of Christian truth, why does the Bible itself say that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15)?

33. Jesus said that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to the world that He had been sent by God (John 17:20-23). How can the world see an invisible "unity" that exists only in the hearts of believers?

34. If the unity of Christians was meant to convince the world that Jesus was sent by God, what does the ever-increasing fragmentation of Protestantism say to the world?

35. Hebrews 13:17 says, "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you." What is the expiration date of this verse? When did it become okay not only to disobey the Church's leaders, but to rebel against them and set up rival churches?

36. The Koran explicitly claims divine inspiration, but the New Testament books do not. How do you know that the New Testament books are nevertheless inspired, but the Koran is not?

37. How does a Protestant know for sure what God thinks about moral issues such as abortion, masturbation, contraceptives, eugenics, euthanasia, etc.?

38. What is one to believe when one Protestant says infants should be baptized (e.g., Luther and Calvin) and another says it is wrong and unbiblical (e.g., Baptists and Evangelicals)?

A Few Bonus Questions

Where does the Bible . . .

. . . say God created the world/universe out of nothing?

. . . say salvation is attainable through faith alone?

. . . tell us how we know that the revelation of Jesus Christ ended with the death of the last Apostle?

. . . provide a list of the canonical books of the Old Testament?

. . . provide a list of the canonical books of the New Testament?

. . . explain the doctrine of the Trinity, or even use the word “Trinity”?

. . . tell us the name of the “beloved disciple”?

. . . inform us of the names of the authors of the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John?

. . . who wrote the Book of Acts?

. . . tell us the Holy Spirit is one of the three Persons of the Trinity?

. . . .tell us Jesus Christ was both fully God and fully man from the moment of conception (e.g. how do we know His Divinity wasn't infused later in His life?) and/or tells us Jesus Christ is One Person with two complete natures, human and Divine and not some other combination of the two natures (i.e., one or both being less than complete)?

. . . that the church should, or someday would be divided into competing and disagreeing denominations?

. . . that Protestants can have an invisible unity when Jesus expected a visible unity to be seen by the world (see John 17)?

. . . tell us Jesus Christ is of the same substance of Divinity as God the Father?

[verga]

She did.

For the official record Verga is 100% USDA approved MALE.

[verga]

I love living in the heads of prots rent free 24/7/365.

[Heart-Rest]

In post 363, you said:    "Yeshua held only the scriptures, as he would say “it is written” before each and every answer when he was questioned. "

In post 397 I replied:    I showed you some questions to Jesus and His answers which proved that claim you made was wrong -- He did not say "It is written" first when answering those questions.

Then, in post 403, you modified your previous statement, completely changing the meaning and moving the goalposts by saying:    "Doctrinal issues Einstein, not drawing out the necessary statements to fulfill the Passover perfectly according to the scriptures. (someone familiar with Yehova’s feasts would have quickly understood exactly what and why Yeshua was answering as he did) "

- - - - - - -

(I guess you were expecting me to read your mind over the internet fumes and particles to learn what you really meant to say, rather than what you actually said.)   

Anyway, I take it from your response that you are so certain of this claim you made that you are agreeing to pledge your sacred honor to pay $1,000 if I could find a "doctrinal question" that Jesus answered without first prefacing His answer with the phrase "It is written".    Here's one - the doctrine of Jesus being "the way, the truth, and the life".)

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5    Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?"

6   Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me."     John 14:5-6

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(There is no "It is written" there.    Please send your $1,000 check directly to Free Republic in support of their fundraising effort.)

(Or are you going to change your criteria specifications again?)

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Catholic Conversion Stories - Link

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[Heart-Rest]

Heart-Rest:    "In case you are really serious, here are a couple quick ones for you: Voting against Barack Hussein Obama."

Iscool:    "Sorry, that's covered in the bible...You'll have to try again... Jas_4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

No, sorry, Iscool, the name "Barack Hussein Obama" cannot be found anywhere in the Bible.    "Conservative Christians" would believe that the text you were pointing to might teach them to vote against B-O, while "Liberal Christians" would believe that the text you were pointing to might teach them to vote for B-O.    As a matter of fact, so many self-described Christians voted for B-O again in 2012, and that is why he is your president right now.

However, you've managed to fortuitously stumble upon a very good and valuable lesson, to teach you why the man-made, protestant fallacious teaching of "sola scriptura" is flawed and false.    Individual, private interpretation of scripture can be very problematic and lead people far astray, as St. Peter plainly made known in the Bible.    That is why we have so many thousands of disagreeing denominations, as well as many more numbers of individuals who insist that they know better what all scripture means just by their own personal interpretations.

If you spend some time prayerfully thinking about what you've stumbled into there, you may very well start to see the light, and head for the right Church - the one Church that Jesus Himself founded.

Keep trying there, Iscool.

[Religion Moderator]

It was not a personal "attack" but it was "making it personal" because it attributed motive to you and made the thread "about" you.

And you have also made the thread about other individual Freepers which is "making it personal."

"Personal attacks" are insulting to another Freeper, personally - e.g. "You're a fool" "Forgot your drugs?" "Drunk again?"

[editor-surveyor]

I’m sorry, I failed to take into account that you have no understanding of the prophecies of Yeshua’s fulfillment of each and every requirement of the Passover.

Yeshua’s “trial” before Pilate fulfilled the examination of the Passover Lamb, and at the end of that trial Pilate pronounced the traditional statement, normally given by the Cohen Gadol: “I find no fault.”

I’m sure that you’ll never understand it; your snarkey example served to prove that it is scripture, and scripture alone that defines The Way.

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[Heart-Rest]

Wow, another rapid chain of replies from you, Elsie.    (I've noticed something -- every time president B-O makes a speech on the radio or TV, you post another quick link in your chain of replies.    Tell the truth, Elsie -- is that really you Barack?)     :-)

Let me try to answer your B-O-speech-like-chain-posts.

- - - - - - -

Your post 435:    "I'd say instead of FALSE; it was an IMPARTIAL statement. Probably the THOUGHT behind the actual words was: 'Only scripture is proven right'... when compared with Catholic traditions'."

Your modifications there sound exactly like the way you also often try to change scripture passages around, severely altering their real original meaning.

- - - - - - -

Your post 439:    "However; there are MANY extra-biblical things that you do that quite frankly, I consider to be a waste of time"

Like what?

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Your post 440:    "I do not believe what your CHURCH has claimed that Jesus 'meant' in those verses."

What Jesus said was what He meant, and the Church that Jesus Christ built interprets what Jesus said exactly the way Jesus said it and meant it.

- - - - - - -

Your post 449:    [Me, quoting John 6:53}    "So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;"

[You, quoting 1 Corinthians 9:9]    For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned?"

Elsie, in John 6, Jesus (God) is talking about Jesus (God).    In 1 Corinthians 9:9, Paul is making reference to an ox.    In your mind, is "Paul" talking about an "ox" the equivalent of "Jesus (God)" talking about "Jesus (God)"?

Elsie, do you believe your salvation is made possible by the blood of Jesus?

If so, do you know exactly how God applies that blood to sins to provide certain people with salvation?

Do you believe you have ever actually seen one single drop of the blood of Jesus?

Have you ever seen God?

Have you ever seen your soul?

Have you any seen how your sins exist on your soul?

Have you ever seen exactly how the Holy Spirit dwells in His temples, our bodies?

Do you believe all these things are real and possible for God to do, even though you, Elsie, can't truly perceive them with your very limited human senses?    Do you understand why many people who lived when Jesus walked the earth thought they just saw another regular Galilean human being, and just could not understand how He could also be God, when His obvious appearence was as a human being?

If you think about these things, maybe you will begin to see how Jesus can provide His Real Presence in His Blessed Sacrament like He solemnly promised He would, even though your own very limited human sense-based perceptions might mistakenly tell you otherwise, as they do in all these other areas as well.

- - - - - - -

Your post 450:    "I must apologize for asserting it then."

With your sarcasm, are you saying you do not believe that Jesus just let those disciples walk away only because they were a bit slow, and they simply did not yet understand that he was only talking to them in metaphors there -- a simple misunderstanding?

Catholics believe those disciples walked away accurately knowing that Jesus was NOT using metaphors there, and, like you Elsie, they just could not bring themselves to believe what Jesus plainly said, while non-Catholics usually believe that those disciples walked away simply because they mistakenly thought that Jesus was not using metaphors, and He just didn't bother to correct their basic misunderstanding.    Catholics believe Jesus is too kind and decent and loving and forgiving to do a mean, nasty thing like that just because those folks were a bit slow and could not immediately see that He was only using metaphors there, so that could not possibly be the true explanation of those discussions for a God who is Love.

(I'll try to check back tomorrow for any reply.)

Catholic Conversion Stories - Link

[ronnietherocket3]

You cannot rely on the published versions of the gospels to relate Jewish tradition, because they were translated from the original Hebrew to Aramaic, and from Aramaic to Greek. the Greek translators clearly had no clues WRT Torah or tradition, and muffed many important details. Only the discovery of the Hebrew copies of the original Hebrew writings of Mattiyahu have allowed full understanding of the events, and also led to the correction of numerous errors (or were they deliberate corruptions?) in the other three gospels.

Mark, in particular is very shallow on detail, and unless we find a copy of the true original, we may never know why.

The curious insertion of an out of place and fictitious “Passover” in John 6 is another hum dinger. Yom Teruah was the feast that was on the agenda in that chapter, not Passover. Can you imagine Yeshua feeding the 5000 with levened barley loaves on the eve of a Passover? And then not going up to Jerusalem, but across the Galilee?

Both this and the Protestant position appear to be that God was either unwilling or too weak to prevent the Church he founded from teaching sin and error. However, the above position makes more sense than the Protestant position as it implies that God was either too weak or too unwilling to prevent the Catholic Church from corrupting scripture. However, this makes less sense than Islam, which holds that God only waited 300 years not 1200 or 1700 years (assuming that Constantine is the point at which the RCC corrupted Christianity) to correct for the problem (unless God was too weak or to try again).

The understanding that this was Yom Teruah comes from Succot occuring in John 7 (as opposed to a different holiday). Interestingly, John only mentions that some time after Jesus had been wandering around Galilee did Succot happen not that it happened shortly there after. The feeding of the 5000 in John 6 clearly happened shortly before Passover, but it does not say on Passover eve. There is a reason for the bread of life discourse to happen just before Passover; Jesus is the new Paschal Lamb and will deliver us from slavery to sin as Passover was instituted to commemorate the Jews being delivered from bondage in Egypt. The concern about Jesus feeding people leavened bread just before Passover is without merit; one is permitted to eat leavened bread up until 14 Nissan.

But why did Jesus not go to Jerusalem if Passover were near? John provides an answer, some Jews in Judea were looking to kill Jesus.

[ronnietherocket3]

Like politicians, I've learned to look at their ACTIONS instead of relying on their WORDS...

https://www.google.com/search?q=mary+grottos+in+yards&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-Address&rlz=1I7ADRA_enUS475&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=8YpvUurDGNOl4APW7YCQBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=560

We also make statues of Jesus. Stained Glass windows of the HS as a dove shooting out little tongues of fire.

[ronnietherocket3]

?????

For real???? Blowing off the CCC? It says right in there “Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . Therefore.....”.

Therefore, what??? Therefore she is given the titles of Jesus and the Holy Spirit

She is given those titles by her intercession not because she is the author of the gifts. Where else do we have a helper? Genesis 2:20. If man and woman played a part in our fall from Grace, but only a man played a role in our redemption, Christianity would actually be sexist; though as Genesis 3 makes clear, man played a greater role in our fall. My point concerning the CCC is that you could only find a couple of paragraphs that might seem to confirm your fears; if we elevated Mary to God's level or above, it would be all over the place.

St. John Eudes
If you persevere until death in true devotion to Mary, you salvation is certain.

What constitutes true devotion to Mary? True devotion to her Son; a Catholic who goes to mass daily but does not pray the Rosary has committed no sin; a Catholic who prays the Rosary daily but does not go to Sunday (except in extraordinary circumstances) has committed grave sin.

St. John Berchmans
I firmly believe I owe my deliverance to the sole intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Note the word intercession; Mary is not the author of the gifts.

[mdmathis6]

Christ is the living “Word” made flesh. Christ himself quoted Old testament scripture when refuting the devil...do the words “It is written...” come to your attention as you remember the story of Chrit’s temptation?

[mdmathis6]

Onan withdrew and spilt his seed upon the ground to keep the widow of his brother from having a child who would inherit his fathers wealth; that was the intention. Since his Father, Judah, was that prophesied Judah from which the Lion of the tribe of Judah would descend(better known as Jesus Christ) this was a direct act of rebellion that displeased God and thus he killed Onan outright.

It has been speculated that this was but one of many attempts by Satan to interfere with God’s plans to produce that “seed of a woman” that would ultimately vanquish Satanic power!

Ultimately the widow tricked Judah into being the father directly from his own loins.

Hence you can’t refer to masturbation as a sin just by this story alone, and the Mosaic code doesn’t directly touch on it. There is an obscure law that men should wash themselves should “uncleanness” come upon them in the night and that they should remain out of the camp as being unclean until the evening, but that might be a reference to wet dreams or incontinence.

A lot of children discover masturbation by accident and they don’t connect it right away to the opposite sex so sin may not be involved here. I think if there is any sin at all, it occurs when masturbation becomes coupled with lust towards women since the one reinforces the other.

[metmom]

I love living in the heads of prots rent free 24/7/365.

verga who?

Dream on if that's what you find pleasure in.....

[NYer]

Christ is the living “Word” made flesh. Christ himself quoted Old testament scripture when refuting the devil...do the words “It is written...” come to your attention as you remember the story of Chrit’s temptation?

Christ is also the living "Bread": "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." Jn 6:51

[CynicalBear]

>>That is why we have so many thousands of disagreeing denominations,<<

Yeah, Catholics are so fortunate to affiliate with an organization that is consistent and firm. Like you MUST belong to the RCC to be saved.

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam: “We declare, say, define, and pronounce [ex cathedra] that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” "If, therefore, the Greeks or others say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors, they necessarily say that they are not of the sheep of Christ, since the Lord says that there is only one fold and one shepherd (Jn.10:16). Whoever, therefore, resists this authority, resists the command of God Himself. " — Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Promulgated November 18, 1302) http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html

Or maybe just be baptized like the Catholics is good enough.

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

Or maybe you don’t need to know about the Catholic Church or even need to know Jesus to be saved.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Or maybe if you are a Muslim you can be saved.

CCC841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

Oh shoot, whatever you are is fine with us.

"If in coming face to face with God we accept Him in our lives, then we are converting. We become a better Hindu, a better Muslim, a better Catholic, a better whatever we are. ... What God is in your mind you must accept" (from Mother Teresa: Her People and Her Work , by Desmond Doig, p. 156, as quoted by Dave Hunt, Global Peace and the Rise of Antichrist , p. 149).

Yep! Firm in their doctrines they are! No duplicity there for sure.

[mdmathis6]

Uhhh..excuse me...were they Spirit Led or not? Does the Bible they put together contain what we know about Jesus’ mission, gospel, and his divinity? Do you deny that multitudes have read the Bible, responding to conviction of their sins by repentance then conversion? That was thrust of my original posting to which you responded with gobbledygook. Why did these early leaders put a compendium of scripture together at all if they had intended no one, least of all the church leaders to take it seriously in terms of application to their teaching and preaching?

For example there are no direct scriptures in the bible these councils put together that amplifies the role of Mary in the way it has been amplified via extra scriptural teaching by the Western Roman Church( I hate to use the word catholic since I think the term has been co-opted from its original meaning). You’d think that since these various councils were supposedly all praying “hail Mary’s” by 400 AD, there would have been accepted “letters or books” describing Mary’s “unique role” that should have been added to the compendium now known as the Holy Bible. But there was not any added! Why was that? Surely a scroll or a book extolling Mary should have been added since there were writings extolling her power from the earliest centuries...surely from some church father or other? Surely Paul the apostle wrote a letter somewhere not only commending his readers unto Christ but also asking for Mary’s intercession and grace as well? Perhaps such a letter lies in a Vatican vault somewhere, who knows...?

The point I made about Mary was not to argue about her role...that is another topic, but rather who or what were the influences that led the councils to choose the books they did and why. If they were Spirit led, then the Bible they put together was God breathed and meant to be disseminated.

In all truth a Biblically grounded leadership and a biblically literate laity are needed for a proper functioning church body since they are checks for one another. That is why at times when occaisionally, evil men got into positions of power in the early churches beyond 400 ad there were attempts to suppress the reading of the Bible by and the teaching of it(for those who could not read) to the laity and their ownership of scriptures. A spiritually aware and biblically astute laity would have led to the early exposure and expulsion of these wolves much more quickly before their poison could begin to corrode the church from the inside as what occurred from 400 ad onward.

As for your snarky printing press comment...you actually reveal the dynamic efficiency of God to work around the edges. By the mid 15 th centuries...the churches were in division and the reformation and counter reformations had everyone at each other’s throats. The “church” at the time had ground to a halt and evangelism, the primary mission of the church, was being stymied. Suddenly, for the few true “harvester of souls” in existence, there were had, the tools and cheaply printed multiple copies of the Bible in the vernacular tongues, so that the efficiency of reaching the world for Christ was increased many fold(by fewer ‘field hands’).
Many folks in turn, having read the scripture were inspired in turn to become witnesses to the gospel of Christ so that the ongoing harvesting of souls for Christ became a tidal wave from the 1500’s thru the early 1900’s when progressivism began it’s poisonous attack on Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants alike. The work continues even today in Africa and Asia though a frigid cooling has begun in western powers.

Now on that term “read”, it was true that for centuries illiteracy was rife. When scriptures could be had for cheap, for many, the Bible became their first reading primers. It was certainly true in North America and it was Biblical preaching that “preached” The United States into existence...thanks to the Bible put together by the learned fathers (AND SPIRIT LED) prior to 500 AD.

[mdmathis6]

“say God created the world/universe out of nothing?”

Question is not phrased correctly....God invented both “dark and light” and he had to create “nothingness” with which to contrast “somethingness”?

The Bible says he created all things...even “nothingness”!

[verga]

“say God created the world/universe out of nothing?”

Question is not phrased correctly....God invented both “dark and light” and he had to create “nothingness” with which to contrast “somethingness”?

The Bible says he created all things...even “nothingness”!

Dark is the absence of Light, Cold is the absence of Heat, Nothing is the absence of anything. God did not invent dark or nothing. They are the absence of God. God is the source of light, heat and everything.