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To: vladimir998

“False. Theologically “meriting” is NOT “earning”. There is no relationship between the two. God decides who merits and who does not. That means there is no “earning”. It is a logical impossibility.”


I don’t think you know what you’re talking about. Notice how you do not actually define “merits,” and as far as I can tell, you must think the word “merits” means nothing at all. You must believe it means nothing, because the catechism directly says that we can ‘then’ merit grace. Now if the initial movement of grace we cannot merit, then what is the difference between that initial grace, and that grace that you do merit, if you define both of them as not having been earned? But then you go on to say:

“We co-operate with those works.”

Now if God creates in you a good work, perhaps He causes you to go out and help your neighbor, what part of that good work is yours, and what part of it is God’s? But if any part of the work is actually your own, cooperating with the God part, it is the same as saying that God’s power was not enough to cause you to do it, but your goodness meeting God in the middle in order to make it happen. In which case, you contradict the scripture which says that grace is not the reward for works.


132 posted on 10/26/2013 4:16:55 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“I don’t think you know what you’re talking about.”

That’s hysterical coming from YOU!

“Notice how you do not actually define “merits,””

Did you define “earn”? Would you care to define the word “hypocrisy” while you’re at it?

“and as far as I can tell, you must think the word “merits” means nothing at all.”

No, I think it means what it means. I also think that you probably assume you know what it means on secular definitions - as is so often the case with Protestant anti-Catholics. Hence, I posted the article from Catholic Answers to you. I knew this is where it would go next because Protestant anti-Catholics are almost entirely predictable in these threads.

“You must believe it means nothing, because the catechism directly says that we can ‘then’ merit grace.”

According to God DECIDING who merits and who doesn’t. Again, that’s not “earning”. The “then” is after “Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can...”

Thus, God MOVES us. And we CAN merit. That means NO “earning”.

“Now if the initial movement of grace we cannot merit, then what is the difference between that initial grace, and that grace that you do merit, if you define both of them as not having been earned?”

The difference is that they are different. They are different in time, effect, and relationship. God rewards in the way of merit when a relationship has been established after the initial grace. That is necessary because God wants free lovers rather than slaves.

“Now if God creates in you a good work, perhaps He causes you to go out and help your neighbor, what part of that good work is yours, and what part of it is God’s?”

We don’t reflect on that because that is not the point. as CS Lewis - through the voice of Screwtape - admonishes us we must not spend time thinking about the idea of (I’m paraphrasing here) “I am now being good”. What we focus on instead, is humility before God, following the prompting of the Holy Spirit, prayer and examinations of conscience. Those things - all of which require God’s help - allow us to be more open to Him and to follow His will.

“But if any part of the work is actually your own, cooperating with the God part, it is the same as saying that God’s power was not enough to cause you to do it, but your goodness meeting God in the middle in order to make it happen.”

No. Jesus is the “middle” in that He became Man so that we could become like Him. He took on our flesh, but without sin, in order us to redeem us and offer us what we need for sanctification. he also gives me grace along my journey here as a pilgrim on earth. The “beginning” is also Jesus - for He begins the works in us. The “end” is also Jesus for He gives us merit. Jesus is the beginning, middle and end always.

“In which case, you contradict the scripture which says that grace is not the reward for works.”

Jesus’ work on the cross led to grace itself. I am not contradicting scripture in the least. It’s all His works. He gives us His gifts as He sees fit.


135 posted on 10/26/2013 4:56:20 PM PDT by vladimir998
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