“I don’t think you know what you’re talking about.”
That’s hysterical coming from YOU!
“Notice how you do not actually define “merits,””
Did you define “earn”? Would you care to define the word “hypocrisy” while you’re at it?
“and as far as I can tell, you must think the word “merits” means nothing at all.”
No, I think it means what it means. I also think that you probably assume you know what it means on secular definitions - as is so often the case with Protestant anti-Catholics. Hence, I posted the article from Catholic Answers to you. I knew this is where it would go next because Protestant anti-Catholics are almost entirely predictable in these threads.
“You must believe it means nothing, because the catechism directly says that we can ‘then’ merit grace.”
According to God DECIDING who merits and who doesn’t. Again, that’s not “earning”. The “then” is after “Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can...”
Thus, God MOVES us. And we CAN merit. That means NO “earning”.
“Now if the initial movement of grace we cannot merit, then what is the difference between that initial grace, and that grace that you do merit, if you define both of them as not having been earned?”
The difference is that they are different. They are different in time, effect, and relationship. God rewards in the way of merit when a relationship has been established after the initial grace. That is necessary because God wants free lovers rather than slaves.
“Now if God creates in you a good work, perhaps He causes you to go out and help your neighbor, what part of that good work is yours, and what part of it is God’s?”
We don’t reflect on that because that is not the point. as CS Lewis - through the voice of Screwtape - admonishes us we must not spend time thinking about the idea of (I’m paraphrasing here) “I am now being good”. What we focus on instead, is humility before God, following the prompting of the Holy Spirit, prayer and examinations of conscience. Those things - all of which require God’s help - allow us to be more open to Him and to follow His will.
“But if any part of the work is actually your own, cooperating with the God part, it is the same as saying that God’s power was not enough to cause you to do it, but your goodness meeting God in the middle in order to make it happen.”
No. Jesus is the “middle” in that He became Man so that we could become like Him. He took on our flesh, but without sin, in order us to redeem us and offer us what we need for sanctification. he also gives me grace along my journey here as a pilgrim on earth. The “beginning” is also Jesus - for He begins the works in us. The “end” is also Jesus for He gives us merit. Jesus is the beginning, middle and end always.
“In which case, you contradict the scripture which says that grace is not the reward for works.”
Jesus’ work on the cross led to grace itself. I am not contradicting scripture in the least. It’s all His works. He gives us His gifts as He sees fit.
“Did you define “earn”? Would you care to define the word “hypocrisy” while you’re at it?”
Besides getting upset, do you intend to actually answer my questions or not? Or, is the problem that you don’t understand it yourself?
“No, I think it means what it means. I also think that you probably assume you know what it means on secular definitions - as is so often the case with Protestant anti-Catholics”
Obviously everyone with a brain defines merits and works as meaning the same exact thing.
“For who makes thee to differ, and what has thou that thou hast not received?” (1 Cor. iv. 7). Our merits therefore do not cause us to differ, but grace. For if it be merit, it is a debt; and if it be a debt, it is not gratuitous; and if it be not gratuitous, it is not grace.” (Augustine, Sermon 293)
Obviously grace can never be earned by anything, and can only be given gratuitously to someone who does not deserve it in any way.
“According to God DECIDING who merits and who doesn’t. Again, that’s not “earning”. The “then” is after “Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can...””
Do you even understand what this actually means? It’s basically like you’re saying, “God will decide who is worthy to be saved, therefore it is not by our worthiness.”
“The difference is that they are different. They are different in time, effect, and relationship. God rewards in the way of merit when a relationship has been established after the initial grace. That is necessary because God wants free lovers rather than slaves.”
Notice that you don’t actually explain “how they are different,” and now you are lapsing back to the obvious, that you say that it is not God who makes us righteous through his infallible power, but man who meets God in the middle, and is therefore earning the grace of salvation as a reward for his obedience.
So, can you please tell me exactly “how” they are different? What is the difference between that initial grace that we do not merit, and that grace which we do merit? And what does “merit” even mean, to you? And do you know what grace means?
“Thus, God MOVES us. And we CAN merit. That means NO “earning”.”
So then we’re back to the question I asked you before. If God is doing the work, how is it that we merit anything at all? What part of the merit belongs to you, as the man, and what part of it belongs to God? And if you are putting in your two cents, in order to make the dollar, then isn’t it accurate to say that it is not by the working of God that we earn our merits, but the man who meets God with His obedience, therefore earning the reward?
But if your merits are earning a reward, then it is debt for a work, and is not gratuitous.
“We don’t reflect on that because that is not the point. as CS Lewis - through the voice of Screwtape -”
So now you’re getting your theology from someone who isn’t even a Catholic? And what do you even MEAN by it? You should spend more time answering my questions instead of saying random stuff about screwtape.
“No. Jesus is the “middle” in that He became Man so that we could become like Him. He took on our flesh, but without sin, in order us to redeem us and offer us what we need for sanctification. he also gives me grace along my journey here as a pilgrim on earth. The “beginning” is also Jesus - for He begins the works in us. The “end” is also Jesus for He gives us merit. Jesus is the beginning, middle and end always.”
What exactly are you saying “no” to? I don’t understand how this is a response to anything I said. Obviously, if you claim that Christ is supplying what you lack, it means that there is something in you which is not lacking, which Christ is only finishing.
In other words, you are already somewhat good, and God makes you all the way good, provided that there is that “goodness” in you upon which to improve upon.
But the scripture says there is nothing good in us at all:
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
(Rom 3:10-11)
Furthermore, if there is goodness in you, then that means that you are saved by that goodness, and not by that mercy of God. Since, even though the mercy of God is making your goodness “perfect,” if you did not have that goodness and obedience to work with, then you would not be saved. Therefore, it is not by God who wills and works or has mercy, but the man who obeys.