Posted on 10/25/2013 1:32:26 PM PDT by Gamecock
"I defy the pope and all his laws; and, if God spares me, I will one day make the boy that drives the plow in England to know more of the Scriptures than the pope does!" So said translation pioneer William Tyndale.
Born near Dursley, Gloucestershire, UK, between 1484 and 1496, Tyndale developed a zeal to get the Bible into the hands of the common man—a passion for which he ultimately gave his life.
Educated at Oxford and Cambridge, Tyndale became fluent in at least seven languages. In 1522, the same year Luther translated the New Testament into German, Tyndale was an ordained Catholic priest serving John Walsh of Gloucestershire. It was during this time, when Tyndale was 28 years of age, that he began pouring over Erasmus’ Greek New Testament. The more he studied the more the doctrines of the Reformation became clear. And like a great fire kindled by a lighting strike, so Tyndale’s heart was set ablaze by the doctrines of grace:
By grace . . . we are plucked out of Adam the ground of all evil and graffed in Christ, the root of all goodness. In Christ God loved us, his elect and chosen, before the world began and reserved us unto the knowledge of his Son and of his holy gospel; and when the gospel is preached to us openeth our hearts and giveth us grace to believe, and putteth the spirit of Christ in us: and we know him as our Father most merciful, and consent to the law and love it inwardly in our heart and desire to fulfill it and sorrow because we do not.
Rome’s Opposition to an English Translation
Nearly 200 years earlier, starting in 1382, John Wycliff and his followers (known as Lollards) distributed hand-written English translations of Scripture. The Archbishop of Canterbury responded by having Wycliffe and his writings condemned.
But Rome was not finished. In 1401, Parliament passed a law making heresy a capital offence. Seven years later, the Archbishop of Canterbury made it a crime to “translate any text of the Scripture into English or any other tongue . . . and that no man can read any such book . . . in part or in whole." The sentence was burning. Across Europe, the flames were ignited and the Lollards were all but destroyed. Rome was determined to keep God’s Word out of the people’s hands.
. . . as a boy of 11 watched the burning of a young man in Norwich for possessing the Lord’s Prayer in English . . . John Foxe records . . . seven Lollards burned at Coventry in 1519 for teaching their children the Lord’s Prayer in English.
John Bale (1495-1563)
Rome was not finished with Wycliffe either: 44 years after his death, the pope ordered Wycliffe’s bones exhumed, burned, and his ashes scattered.
Tyndale was truly in great danger.
Tyndale’s End
Fearing for his life, Tyndale fled London for Brussels in 1524 where he continued his translation work for the next 12 years. Tyndale’s time in exile was dreadful, as he describes in a 1531 letter:
. . . my pains . . . my poverty . . . my exile out of mine natural country, and bitter absence from my friends . . . my hunger, my thirst, my cold, the great danger wherewith I am everywhere encompassed, and finally . . . innumerable other hard and sharp fighting’s which I endure.
On the evening of May 21, 1535, Tyndale was betrayed to the authorities by a man he trusted, Henry Philips. For the next 18 months, Tyndale lived a prisoner in Vilvorde Castle, six miles outside of Brussles. The charge was heresy.
The verdict came in August, 1536. He was condemned as a heretic and defrocked as a priest. On or about October 6, 1536, Tyndale was tied to a stake, strangled by an executioner, and then his body burned. He was 42 years old. His last words were, “Lord! Open the King of England’s Eyes!”
Tyndale’s Legacy
Tyndale’s translations were the foundations for Miles Coverdale’s Great Bible (1539) and later for the Geneva Bible (1557). As a matter of fact, about 90% of the Geneva Bible’s New Testement was Tyndale’s work. In addition, the 54 scholars who produced the 1611 Authorized Version (King James) bible relied heavily upon Tyndale’s translations, although they did not give him credit.
Tyndale is also known as a pioneer in the biblical languages. He introduced several words into the English language, such as Jehovah, Passover, scapegoat, and atonement.
It has been asserted that Tyndale's place in history has not yet been sufficiently recognized as a translator of the Scriptures, as an apostle of liberty, and as a chief promoter of the Reformation in England. In all these respects his influence has been singularly under-valued, at least to Protestants.
“That is exactly what you did. I substantiated the sanctioned liberal scholarship in your official American Bible,”
You never substantiated it as you claim. You insisted – until even your last post or two – that it was “sanctioned” by “Rome” even claiming it was the “Bishop of Rome” who had given a “stamp” to it – all of which proved to be completely false. This is how you started that ridiculous and false series of claims: “Then you disagree with Rome now allowing readership of materials it once forbade, while giving the stamp the commentary in your own official American Bible…” And as I demonstrated that is simply not simply the case. There is no “stamp” from “Rome”. You made it up. You based it on nothing. You never substantiated it. You failed utterly.
“…and in response to your censure for not saying “New” as in “New American” (which my source link would have told you),”
I pointed out that you couldn’t even get the name of the Bible right. It was true – you couldn’t.
“ i clarified what was meant for EWTN, that of the UCCB approved American Bible,”
The UCCB? Do you mean the USCCB?
“While it was the fact that a Catholic Bible, with the UCCB approval and local bishop’s imprimatur, sanctioned liberal scholarship (and that such is still seen in later versions) was what mattered, you chose to make the issue that the NAB was never used at your particular church,”
1) What local bishop are you even talking about? Do you even understand the terms you use? And the fact that you are now saying “local bishop” must mean you are tacitly admitting that your earlier claim about the “Bishop of Rome” having given it a “stamp” was false just as I said it was. Thanks.
2) Again, what is the UCCB? Do you even understand the terms you use?
3) In post #174 I posted this in response to your comments:
Begin paste:
You: “Then you disagree with Rome now allowing readership of materials it once forbade,”
Me: Whether I agree or disagree is immaterial since the Church has added and subtracted materials from the index for centuries so your question is meaningless.
You: “...while giving the stamp the commentary in your own official American Bible which teaches or did teach such things as ,”
Me: First, you mean the “New American Bible” and not the “American Bible”. It amazes me that Protestant anti-Catholics can’t even get the most basic things right. Second, the NAB is issued by the USCCB - which is not an official organization in the hierarchy of the Church and plays little or no role in my faith life. Neither my parish nor my pastor are under the authority of the USCCB. Third, I think you better check your source. I have the NABRE on my Kindle and the notes for the Tower of Babel (Gen 11) don’t say anything about the story being “an imaginative origin of the diversity of the languages among the various peoples inhabiting the earth”. It says just “Secondarily, the story explains the diversity of language among peoples of the earth.” Perhaps you’re using the old edition? Since the very first thing I check in your post turns out to be incorrect I see no reason to bother with the rest.
End paste
Thus, I only brought up my parish and my pastor in relation to your errors concerning who issued the NAB or NABRE and your use of “your” in regard to the “American Bible”. It was clear that there was no reason to believe you had any idea of what you were talking about.
“and that was is read in Mass now is not exactly the same as the NAB, as if lectionary readings based on a revised edition of the NAB contradicted it being the UCCB approved Bible, from which revisions are made.”
Again, what is the UCCB here? Also, you’re now admitting that it was the USCCB (UCCB?) who “approved” the Bible while before you clearly claimed it was “Rome” and even the “Bishop of Rome”. So, “If you like your plan, you can keep your plan” now has morphed into “What we said was you could keep it if it hasn’t changed since the law was passed.” Great.
“ and incorporation of the NABRE is likely a decade or more away.”
Doesn’t change the fact that you falsely claimed there was no announcement about a new lectionary which would incorporate the NABRE. You did. And you were wrong.
“And i showed that the NAB was the UCCB approved Bible meaning with revisions for the lectionary, which are based upon it.”
Which is it – the UCCB or the USCCB? Pick one.
“Denial again; the NAB, with its notes, was/is clearly stamped,”
Nope. There is no “stamp”. Do you know what a “stamp” is? This are some stamps:
http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/541545/USPS-Four-Flags-FOREVER-Postage-Stamps/?Channel=Google&mr:trackingCode=A4A28B20-E2A5-E211-9C7C-BC305BF82162&mr:referralID=NA&mr:adType=pla&mr:ad=34419654596&mr:keyword=&mr:match=&mr:filter=41428843009&cm_mmc=Mercent-_-Googlepla-_-Office_Supplies+Mailing_Shipping_Envelopes-_-541545
I have at least half a dozen NABs of various types and not a single one of them has either one of those “stamps”. And, to remind you again, you claimed it was “stamped” by “Rome” and even the “Bishop of Rome” and both claims were completely false. No “stamp” at all. And no “stamp” at all from “Rome” or the “Bishop of Rome”. None.
“as my older copy is, and as even RC sources attest for later ones. The 2011 NABRE carries the Nihil Obstat from Stephen J. Hartdegen, O.F.M., L.S.S. Censor Deputatus, and the Imprimatur from James A. Hickey, S.T.D., J.C.D. Archbishop of Washington, August 27, 1986. And the Revised Old Testament is authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, Inc.and approved by the UCCB, as required by canon 825 §1 of the Code of Canon Law.”
1) I posted all the names you would find next to the “nihil obstat” and “imprimatur” in any NAB or NABRE. So, now you are proving that you were wrong earlier when you falsely claimed it was “Rome” or the “Bishop of Rome”. Neither Hartdegen nor Hickey are either “Rome” or the “Bishop of Rome”. Thanks for proving me right yet again.
2) Again, what is the “UCCB”? What is that?
“Whether or not these come from the local diocese’s scholar-censor and bishop or higher, the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur given for a reason, and have a history going way back to the Index, and are meaningless if they carry no weight and provide no assurance from the RCC.”
What carries no wait and provides no assurances to your claims is that you are now admitting it was the USCCB and U.S. bishops who approved the NAB and NABRE while you earlier were completely in error and claimed it was “Rome” and the “Bishop of Rome”. You were COMPLETELY WRONG in those claims. That alone – something which you held to in post after post casts doubt on many of your other claims. If you can’t be trusted to get something so basic right, then you can’t be trusted in general.
“Furthermore, if these stamps do not apply to the notes, which is not made clear, then it still amounts to negligence on the part of Rome for allowing such to this day.”
So you claim – but your claims can’t be taken seriously. You have been wrong too many times on too many issues. Also, there is a hint of hypocrisy in these sorts of comments from Protestant anti-Catholics. When “Rome” cracks down and mandates that people do something there are accusations of totalitarianism and calls for freedom from “Rome”. When “Rome” doesn’t crack down to the invented liking of the anti-Catholic, then there are accusations of “negligence”. This hypocrisy escapes the lax circumspection of Protestant anti-Catholics.
“The preface to the Boook of Genesis in the aforementioned NABRE tells us such things as that describing Gn. 2-11 as history is misleading, “for its suggests the events really took place.” From this we can conclude that Peter was referring to a mere story, not history, in condemning those scoffers who were ignorant the flood and its judgment.”
Your conclusion is your own. And you apparently forgot to include the sentence that came before it: ““Myth” is an unsuitable term, for it has several different meanings and connotes untruth in popular English.” So, it shouldn’t be called history and it shouldn’t be called myth they say. Don’t like it? Too bad. I’m not a big fan of it either. Too bad. You know what I don’t do? I don’t pretend that “Rome” wrote that intro. I don’t pretend that the “Bishop of Rome” “stamped” it. I’m not making things up about it. Someone here is, but it isn’t me. You want to take a wild guess as to who is making those things up?
“The preface instead tells is that the plot of Gn. 2-11 was borrowed from “stories attested in Mesopotamian literature of the second and early first millennia,” despite the distinctions . And that the authors of Genesis adapted the pagan creation-flood story in accord with their views of God and humanity.”
Again, you don’t like it? Too bad. I’m not a big fan either. What I don’t do is pretend that “Rome” wrote that intro. I don’t pretend that the “Bishop of Rome” “stamped” it. I’m not making things up about it. Someone here is, but it isn’t me. You want to take a wild guess as to who is making those things up?
“And as said, it also supports liberal revisionism of the JEDP theory which has the Pentateuch being the work of various editors and redactors extending to the 6th century BC making it relevant to their generation.”
Again, you don’t like it? Too bad. I’m not a big fan either. But, once again, I don’t do is pretend that “Rome” wrote that intro. I don’t pretend that the “Bishop of Rome” “stamped” it. I’m not making things up about it. Someone here is, but it isn’t me. You want to take a wild guess as to who is making those things up?
“More denial. “Rome” represents the RCC, and what is taught by it, under its governorship in Rome, and what it sanctions by its bishops, etc. or fails to censure reflects upon its faith and is what it effectually teaches”
No. You said “Bishop of Rome”. You were wrong. It is clear that when you said “Rome” you meant the Vatican – and clearly the Vatican had nothing official to do with the translation and approval of the NAB or NABRE. Nothing. That is why you failed – time after time – when I asked for you to provide any evidence at all to your claim that it was “Rome” who approved it.
“And him only?”
No, but he is the one who admitted to it and there have only been 5 popes in the “last 50 years”. Some popes are better than others. Some popes – hundreds of years ago – were lousy. In the end, God protects the Church anyway.
“Of course it seems you support the Spanish inquisitions and all its means.”
No. I support the original cause of the Spanish Inquisition – to root out people who were pretending to be Christians so that they could advance in society. I have no problem with that. The H.U.A.C. did that when dealing with communists in the 50s. I have no problem with that in itself either. That doesn’t mean I approve of “means” employed by the Spanish inquisitors. At least 6 popes complained to the Spanish Inquisition about its activities, “means” and so forth. There were obviously abuses of power. I still no reason to through the baby out with the bath water.
“The Vatican’s own site providing liberal revisionism does not reflect upon them as overseers?”
No, not really since all the Vatican did was post what the USCCB approved so that Americans would have an approved Bible online to access. If you don’t like the fact that it was posted online, too bad.
“More assertions from one who asserts his assertions are right even if documentation contradicts him, and which again is the case, as the Unam Sanctum blog does indeed attests to the “stamps.””
No. There is no proof of a “stamp” from “Rome” or the “Bishop of Rome” at that site or any other anywhere in the world in the regard you mention. I went back to the blog in question. The blog post has 999 words exactly. I used word search and found 0 mentionings of “stamps”. Zero. Zero uses of the word “stamped”. There were zero uses of the word “Rome”. Zero. Although Pope Paul VI is mentioned he is mentioned for an apostolic blessing and not for any “stamp” of any kind. Imprimaturs and nihil obstats are mentioned. None of them are from any “Bishop of Rome” or “Rome”. You are clearly wrong. You seem to be doubling down on an objective error on your part. No “stamps” – postage or otherwise – are mentioned in that blog post. None.
“And do not try again to say you do not know what “stamps” represent here, which were referred to from the beginning, as you already did try and it was explained to you what they meant, the imprimatur and nihil obstat.”
Sorry, but this “stamps” nonsense on your part is exactly that – nonsense. If it is an imprimatur or nihil obstat you’re talking about, then actually use the correct terms. If you’re actually trying to make an argument, it helps to use the terms which are actually representative of the things recognized and understood. For someone to use a term that make him sound like he doesn’t have a clue as to what he is talking about is simply not a way to make an argument. It naturally will lead any reader who does know what he is talking about to conclude, “This guy is clueless.”
“Engaging in semantics will not work.”
Asking for proof is not semantics. You have UTTERLY failed to show any proof at all to your claim that there were “stamps” given to the notes of the NAB or the NAB itself by “Rome” or the “Bishop of Rome” – which is what you claimed.
“Books of the sacred Scriptures may not be published unless they are approved by the Apostolic See or the Episcopal Conference.”
And, as I DEMONSTRATED, every single nihil obstat or imprimatur that every NAB or NABRE in existence in this world is from a bishop in the USCCB, a priest who works in an American diocese, and in one case from the Archbishop of Westminster for one particular article. That’s it. None – not a single one – came from a “Bishop of Rome” or “Rome”. Not even one.
“And an approved Bible issued by the conference of RC bishops, with the stamps of the local ordinary, provides assurance to RCs that they that a book or pamphlet is free of doctrinal or moral error. This was Rome’s idea, not some publishers. And relegating historical accounts to being fables and folk tales is a problem.”
So say you, but your opinion doesn’t matter. Deliberately mistranslating words in the NIV should concern you more than what any Catholic Bible – or its notes – says. Hypocrisy is an ugly – and very Protestant – thing apparently. And don’t forget: ““Myth” is an unsuitable term, for it has several different meanings and connotes untruth in popular English.”
“Once again this is an semantical escape.”
Really? Okay, let’s look at what you wrote that I was responding to: “What proof!? The imprimatur and nihil obstat, which are issued by Bishops of Rome!” So, you make a very specific assertion there. You are claiming that the imprimatur and nihil obstat – you actually use the real terms rather than your mythical “stamps” – were given by popes, by “Bishops of Rome”. Okay, the NAB came out in 1970. From then, until 2011 when the NABRE came out, there were exactly four popes, four “Bishops of Rome”. These are there names: Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI. Now, which one of those “Bishops of Rome” EVER gave a nihil obstat or imprimatur to the New American Bible or New American Bible Revised Edition? Which one? If you cannot name one of those popes – and remember I have every common edition of the NAB and NABRE – as having given a nihil obstat or imprimatur to one of those Bibles, you are simply flat out wrong. It has nothing to do with semantics. It has everything to do with what YOU claimed: “The imprimatur and nihil obstat, which are issued by Bishops of Rome!”
“Do you really think i was referring to popes?!”
Of course! Popes are the “Bishops of Rome”. No one else is.
“The imprimaturs were by bishops of Rome, as in bishops of the RCC!”
Nope. And it is amazing that you resort to semantics of an outrageous kind after denouncing a “semantical escape” that I never took. For you to claim that a bishop in Omaha is a “Bishops of Rome” is bizarre and clearly a “semantical escape” of the worst kind. I would think a person would be embarrassed making such an outrageous “semantical escape” but I bet that isn’t the case.
“Besides the insolence of making this to mean the Vatican itself…”
Insolence? Are you sure you know what that word means? You’re actually claiming that when you say “And which notes the Vatican’s own site provides” and I take that word “Vatican” to actually refer to the “Vatican” it’s insolence on my part? Really? So, if you say “Buick”, and I take it to mean “Buick” you would claim that to be insolence on my part? That’s hysterically funny! Seriously, that is one of the most bizarre claims I have ever heard from a Protestant anti-Catholic in my entire life.
“…the Vatican providing these notes via its website is in addition to the NAB having the imprimatur of the bishops, whose judgment RCs are to trust.”
Did you say something? Sorry, I’m still trying to recover from my shock over you claiming that “Vatican” doesn’t mean “Vatican” when you write it. Since your words – by your own admission now – don’t actually mean what they are universally known to convey I’m not even sure how to proceed. Maybe you should try a new communications medium. How about you try finger paints since words are apparently meaningless in your usage?
“Enough with your game. Show me that none have the imprimatur of a Bishop of Rome (RCC) as that is what i obviously referred to. Put up or shut up”
I already posted all the names of those men who gave an imprimatur or nihil obstat to each and every NAB or NABRE ever produced. Not a single one of those people listed is a Bishop of Rome. Not a single one. You tried a “semantic escape” but it has failed. Not one Bishop of Rome ever gave the NAB or NABRE an imprimatur or nihil obstat. There were also no “stamps” – no postage stamps, no green stamps, no food stamps. None.
But let’s roll the video tape and see what happened just in case any Protestant anti-Catholic decides to claim “If you like your plan, you can keep your plan” shall we?:
Hartdegen (not a bishop)
O’Boyle (Archbishop of Washington, DC – which no rational person confuses with Rome)
Tranter (not a bishop)
Heenan (Archbishop of Westminster – which no rational person confuses with Rome)
Pilarczyk (Archbishop of Cincinnati - which no rational person confuses with Rome)
Hickey (Archbishop of Washington - which no rational person confuses with Rome)
Gutgsell & Peter (not bishops)
Sheehan (Archbishop of Omaha - which no rational person confuses with Rome)
Clack (not a bishop)
Boland (Bishop of Savannah - which no rational person confuses with Rome)
George (Archbishop of Chicago which no rational person confuses with Rome).
Not a single one of those men is a Bishop of Rome. Not a single one. Cardinal George even points out in the latest edition – the NABRE – that the Bible is issued by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine (which is an American institution) and that the translation was approved by the Administrative Committee of the USCCB. And that he HIMSELF as head of the USCCB is permitting it for “private use and study”. No Bishop of Rome figured into any of the approvals, imprimaturs, or nihil obstats in any official way whatsoever. Number of “semantic escapes” used = ZERO.
“Is that a Catholic approved Bible?”
It is no more Catholic than you. That’s the point. If you’re a Protestant why are you upset about Catholic Bibles you don’t like – so much so that you make up things out of thin air about them – but you won’t take a stand against a deliberate mistranslation made by your fellow Protestants in a Protestant Bible? Hypocrisy.
“No, and while i reject that “dynamic” paraphrase also, invoking that this is more diversion, as the issue was and is not the integrity of Bible translations by the promoting of Rome as the supreme and only trustworthy teacher and watchman of truth, which extends far more than to infallible teachings. Thus the need for the stamps, which was the issue in the first place.”
Actually none of that was the issue. That wasn’t what the thread was about and you introduced this whole bizarre anti-NAB nonsense - you and you alone did that – in post #169. It’s all you.
“Which affirms what i just said. Rather than a RC seeing the actual specific word “fornication” to define what is specifically being condemned, the RC is to look to the heading of the interpreters, the same ones is seems to provide the notes turning the Flood, etc, into non-historical events adopted pagans.”
And there you go contradicting yourself. Earlier you were insistent that the translation should be “sexual immorality” but now you’re saying it should be “fornication”. Gee, is this another “semantic escape” on your part?
“And again you avoid what i showed you, that my censure referred to what was taught, as well such things as still are, and which the NABRE includes.”
First of all, you have no censure to speak of. All you have to offer is “semantic escape”.
“And this is taking way too much of my time on this dead thread, so i intend to move on.”
Yes, make your more-than-semantic-escape now! When you run into a “Bishops of Rome” let me know. When you actually come across an imprimatur or nihil obstat from a “Bishops of Rome” in the NAB or NABRE let me know. When you actually find a “stamps” in the NAB or NABRE let me know.
You insisted – until even your last post or two – that it was “sanctioned” by “Rome” even claiming it was the “Bishop of Rome” who had given a “stamp” to it – all of which proved to be completely false.
No. You said “Bishop of Rome”. You were wrong. It is clear that when you said “Rome” you meant the Vatican
claimed it was “Rome” and the “Bishop of Rome”.
Again, you don’t like it? Too bad. I’m not a big fan either. What I don’t do is pretend that “Rome” wrote that intro. I don’t pretend that the “Bishop of Rome” “stamped” it.
Yet not once did i state the "Bishop of Rome” as giving the approval, which would denote the pope, but that,
the NAB is the Bible that was approved the the Bishops issued by the conference of RC bishops,
The New American Bible (1970) was adopted by the US bishops for use in the Lectionary
The imprimatur and nihil obstat, which are issued by Bishops of Rome!”
I never said any NAB had the the iprimatur and nihil obstat stamp from a pope (or Imprimi potest), and it has been made abundantly evident that the NAB approval and the imprimatur was bishops of the USCCB, and thus it should be clear to you that "Bishops [plural] of Rome" does not mean popes, nor bishops worldwide but bishops of the USCCB.
And as much as RCs object to the use of "Rome" for the RCC, you are not a novice here and must know what is meant by it in context, that of the RCC as it has its headquarters in Rome, and what it allows its representatives to do, esp. its bishops, under its leadership reflects upon it, and what one does effectually conveys what one believes. Stop arguing as if you are ignorant of this.
that of the UCCB approved American Bible,
The UCCB? Do you mean the USCCB?
Again, what is the UCCB here?
Which is it – the UCCB or the USCCB? Pick one.
Likewise how can you plead ignorance here? Sure i copied my own mistake in leaving out the "S", but do you really expect me to believe you do not know what i am referring to, esp as the context makes that clear??? I am not writing a Bible, but it's OK to use "immorality" for porneia since context makes that clear, but you express confusion over UCCB vs. USCCB as to who gave the approval when its abundantly evident it refers to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops!
Nope. There is no “stamp”. Do you know what a “stamp” is? This are some stamps:
This is absurd! This has been explained to you already, as the term "stamps" is used even by RCs here to denote the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur (Etym. Latin imprimere, to impress, stamp imprint) Are you that much a novice or feigning ignorance?
“And which notes the Vatican’s own site provides .”
And still you cannot provide a single example of where anything in any NAB went through any Vatican imprimatur or nihil obstat at all. None.
Besides the insolence of making this to mean the Vatican itself, the Vatican providing these notes via its website is in addition to the NAB having the imprimatur of the bishops, whose judgment RCs are to trust.
Insolence? Are you sure you know what that word means? You’re actually claiming that when you say “And which notes the Vatican’s own site provides” and I take that word “Vatican” to actually refer to the “Vatican” it’s insolence on my part?
It was and is insolence, unless this is another example of incomprehension, as you made my statements on the imprimatur of the USCCB bishops to mean the Vatican itself, and then try to make that example of insolence to refer to you recognizing that "the Vatican's own web site provides" does mean the Vatican, when that came after my censure of your insolence.
The rest of your post overall expresses more of this misconstruane or incomprehension, feigned or real, and avoids that is a a fact that Rome, the RCC, has and does indeed sanction liberal scholarship with the same stamps your approved for censure of such. You laborious attempts to counter that is the real error, and such flack testifies to being over the target a long time ago.
But you have accomplished wasting my time, but no more. May others be forewarned.
“Your reply is what i meant by insolence.”
Your reply is what I mean by hypocritical “semantic escape” attempts.
You said: “In alleging errors, you must false quote what i said and miscontruse such or write as as if you are a novice. Beginning with your your of me saying “Bishop of Rome:”
And you said: “Yet not once did i state the “Bishop of Rome” as giving the approval, which would denote the pope, but that, the NAB is the Bible that was approved the the Bishops issued by the conference of RC bishops, The New American Bible (1970) was adopted by the US bishops for use in the Lectionary The imprimatur and nihil obstat, which are issued by Bishops of Rome!”
False. Repeatedly you have said “Rome” gave “stamps” to the NAB. Omaha is not “Rome”. American bishops are not “Bishops of Rome”. The only “Bishops of Rome” are the Bishops of Rome and none of them ever gave any “stamps” – postage or otherwise - to the NAB.
“I never said any NAB had the the iprimatur and nihil obstat stamp from a pope (or Imprimi potest),”
You said the NAB had been given “stamps” from “Rome”. Who in “Rome” are you claiming gave these “stamps” to the NAB? Who exactly?
“and it has been made abundantly evident that the NAB approval and the imprimatur was bishops of the USCCB,”
Then why did you keep saying it was “Rome”, and “Bishops of Rome” when it was the USCCB? Why did you repeatedly say “UCCB” come to think of it? Why are your posts filled with so many errors which you repeat over and over again?
“and thus it should be clear to you that “Bishops [plural] of Rome” does not mean popes, nor bishops worldwide but bishops of the USCCB.”
Which makes zero sense – and I simply don’t believe that that was even your belief when you posted it because who would write “Bishops of Rome” for the bishops who happen to be members of the UNITED STATES Conference of Catholic Bishops? Sorry, that is irrational.
Even your own comments bear out this sort of irrationality. You wrote: “So you did not even know what i meant by Rome “giving the stamp” to the commentary, when you first objected to it? Am i really to believe that you did not understand this refers to the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur?”
Repeatedly – and I mean repeatedly – you had used the words “stamps” rather than nihil obstat or imprimatur. You used “Rome” instead of the “Vatican” or some other term. You used “Bishops of Rome” – with the “B” in caps no less which means it was a proper noun and thus could only refer to the Bishops of Rome – the popes. Now you’re claiming you meant the USCCB all along? R-I-G-H-T.
“And as much as RCs object to the use of “Rome” for the RCC, you are not a novice here and must know what is meant by it in context,”
You’re comments gainsay context at every turn. When you can make the incredulous claim that “Bishops of Rome” really meant bishops from Omaha, Chicago, and Washington, D.C. context is clearly meaningless in your comments.
“that of the RCC as it has its headquarters in Rome, and what it allows its representatives to do, esp. its bishops, under its leadership reflects upon it, and what one does effectually conveys what one believes. Stop arguing as if you are ignorant of this.”
The ignorance is not mine – it’s yours. If you mean the USCCB, then don’t say “UCCB”. If you mean the USCCB, then don’t say “Rome”. If you mean the USCCB, then don’t say “Bishops of Rome”. I have never heard of anyone, anywhere, ever saying “Bishops of Rome” means the USCCB. The very idea makes no sense.
“Likewise how can you plead ignorance here?”
The ignorance that is causing the problem is not mine. I simply can’t trust or rely on anything you post because you make so many mistakes. You say “UCCB” is the “USCCB” – not just once or twice but a number of times. You claim, ridiculously, that the USCCB are “Bishops of Rome” when everyone knows there is only one Bishop of Rome and that is the pope. You repeatedly used the word “stamps” as if that meant something when it did not.
“Sure i copied my own mistake in leaving out the “S”, but do you really expect me to believe you do not know what i am referring to, esp as the context makes that clear???”
Your comments are so filled with errors that there is no way to understand what you mean. What person who wants to discuss the USCCB claims to describe them as “Bishops of Rome” after repeatedly talking about “Rome” and clearly meaning the pope and the Vatican? Seriously, your comments are filled with errors.
“I am not writing a Bible, but it’s OK to use “immorality” for porneia since context makes that clear, but you express confusion over UCCB vs. USCCB as to who gave the approval when its abundantly evident it refers to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops!”
It’s not clear from your comments. Again, when someone writes “Bishops of Rome” and then later claims that that means the USCCB – after referring to “Rome” many times – it’s all clear as mud. To use your own analogy: It’s clear in the NAB that pornei in the verses you cited means “sexual immorality” from the context – especially when the chapter heading immediately before its use says “Sexual Immorality”. Thus, if you used a section heading such as “Bishops of Rome means all Catholic Bishops in the USCCB” then it would be clear what you meant. It would still be stupid to refer to USCCB bishops as Bishops of Rome since none of them are, but it would be clear what you meant.
“This is absurd! This has been explained to you already, as the term “stamps” is used even by RCs here to denote the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur (Etym. Latin imprimere, to impress, stamp imprint) Are you that much a novice or feigning ignorance?”
Your writing is so vague, so bizarre in its inventive use of incorrect terms for universally known things, that it had to be pointed out. If you mean imprimatur and nihil obstat, then say so. If you want to claim the NAB is approved by the USCCB, be my guest. But claiming it was “stamped” by “Rome” when no such “stamp” exists and no one in “Rome” and no “Bishops of Rome” gave it, ruins any chance you might have had to build an argument. Now, all you can do is damage control and claim you always meant “USCCB” when you said “UCCB” repeatedly or “Bishops of Rome” (even though none of them are Bishops of Rome).
The next series of comments I’m going to label so that anyone reading this can see exactly what I mean about your bizarre attempts at “semantic escape” (and that was your term don’t forget):
You wrote: “And which notes the Vatican’s own site provides .”
My response: And still you cannot provide a single example of where anything in any NAB went through any Vatican imprimatur or nihil obstat at all. None.
Your comment: Besides the insolence of making this to mean the Vatican itself, the Vatican providing these notes via its website is in addition to the NAB having the imprimatur of the bishops, whose judgment RCs are to trust.
My response: Insolence? Are you sure you know what that word means? You’re actually claiming that when you say “And which notes the Vatican’s own site provides” and I take that word “Vatican” to actually refer to the “Vatican” it’s insolence on my part?
And now your latest comment: “It was and is insolence,”
Again, are you sure you know what that word means? How EXACTLY is it insolent for anyone to actually believe you mean “Vatican” when you say “Vatican”? Maybe I just should conclude you never mean anything you say, right? After all when you say “Bishops of Rome” you don’t actually mean it, right?
“unless this is another example of incomprehension, as you made my statements on the imprimatur of the USCCB bishops to mean the Vatican itself, and then try to make that example of insolence to refer to you recognizing that “the Vatican’s own web site provides” does mean the Vatican, when that came after my censure of your insolence.”
That’s hilarious. That has to be one of the most bizarrely contorted examples of who-knows-what that I have seen posted by a Protestant anti-Catholic. And you can “censure” my supposed “insolence” until the cows come home. It won’t change the fact that you are actually try to convince people that you always meant “USCCB” when you said “Bishops of Rome” and now “Vatican” apparently doesn’t really mean “Vatican”.
“The rest of your post overall expresses more of this misconstruane or incomprehension, feigned or real, and avoids that is a a fact that Rome, the RCC, has and does indeed sanction liberal scholarship with the same stamps your approved for censure of such.”
Except that it never happened. “Rome” never provided any “stamp” to any note in the NAB. The USCCB, American bishops, some priests, and an Archbishop of Westminster provided every last one of the nihil obstats and imprimaturs provided to each and every NAB and NABRE ever published.
“You laborious attempts to counter that is the real error, and such flack testifies to being over the target a long time ago.”
I don’t think you could find the target if someone led you to it by hand. “Bishops of Rome”, for instance, means Bishops of Rome and not bishops from Omaha!
“But you have accomplished wasting my time, but no more. May others be forewarned.”
I’ve wasted your time? Amazing. Think of all the nonsense you posted – repeatedly – that was simply incorrect about “Bishops of Rome” who weren’t and you’ll know whose time was wasted.
Yes indeed with your sophistry, as others can see, and thus your post and is being summarily ignored even if it provokes more of your vain attempts to escape the fact that Rome, as the RCC, has sanctioned liberal scholarship via its NAB and stamped notes. The end.
"Yes indeed with your sophistry, as others can see, and thus your post and is being summarily ignored even if it provokes more of your vain attempts to escape the fact that Rome, as the RCC, has sanctioned liberal scholarship via its NAB and stamped notes. The end."But cut the guy some slack, while giving due credit (merit?) where credit is due. It was time-consuming, yes, but award winning too.
“Rome, as the RCC, has sanctioned liberal scholarship via its NAB and stamped notes.”
Post a single example of such a “stamp” coming from “Rome”. When you fail, and you will, we will know this is not “The end”.
Yes, we have learned that what Rome sanctions can only mean what the pope or Vatican does - but not what the Vatican provides on its web site - and headquarters is not to be held responsible for what the RCC does in America under its Bishop’s sanction.
FOTFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are none so blind as those who will not see (the point daniel was making, which is constantly being evaded.)
No wonder they’re convinced that no one can correctly interpret Scripture.
Return to Index page
Wow. Forget about this old thread. What brought you to it?
Just fascinated by the early translation of scripture.
Did a search of William,,,
Sorry to disturb,,FRiend.
That's fine. Imagine if we resurrected every thread on the RF!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
