Meet "Kosher Frank" (Pope says Church cannot engage in proselytism)

The Norvus Ordo Watch ^ | 9/29/2013 | Norvus Ordo Watch Blog

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

Meet "Kosher Frank"

This story needs no commentary because it speaks for itself. Jorge Bergoglio is not a Catholic nor a Pope - but an apostate. What we are seeing here are the next steps in the amalgamation of all religions into one, the prelude to the Antichrist.

[Taken from Vatican Insider, 9/29/13. Coloring added for emphasis.] [But no coloring on FR]

"Pope Francis and Rabbi Skorka make history in the Vatican" by Gerard O'Connell, Rome

... “We hold to different traditions, but we are creating a dialogue that has not existed for centuries. Both of us believe that God has something to do with our friendship and with what we are doing. There are too many coincidences for it all to be mere chance”, said Skorka, 63, who is Rector of the Latin American Rabbinic Seminary. “We come together without burying our identities. I spoke to him about evangelization, and he stated emphatically that the Catholic Church cannot engage in proselytism”, he said.

“We are not looking for a photo opportunity, but we want what we are doing to trigger a re-thinking about things. Ours is not a relation of ‘tea and sympathy’; that is not my way, and it is not Bergoglio’s way. We want to move ahead by actions, we must advance by building bridges, through a living dialogue; not a dialogue of words, but a dialogue of actions that reflect our commitment”, he stated.

[ebb tide]

VC II was a pastoral council. No pope has spoken infallibly since prior to 1962.

Does that help?

[Mrs. Don-o]

Why, yes, he used the word "proselytism," and he's agin it. So am I. It is to be distinguished from Evangelization.

G'night now, ebb tide.

[vladimir998]

“You’re ignoring the following dialogue”

I’m not ignoring anything.

[ebb tide]

I am not favorably impressed by the effort to put the most negative construction on everything the Pope said, or purportedly said, especially when the article you are referring to does not have one single, direct quote, properly so called --- as you know --- and can't have, since the embarrassing fact has been uncovered that the whole thing was constructed without a recording or even written notes.

And I'm not favorably impressed by those who defend the Pope for every statement he makes like atheists can go to Heaven, as long as they follow their idea of "Good", whatever they think "Good" is.

[ebb tide]

So you agree the pope has no intent to convert anyone to Catholicism?

If you don’t, you’re ignoring the dialogue.

[Chesterbelloc]

2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.*280

*280 St. Ignatius of Loyola, Spiritual Exercises, 22

---

I have to admit that I don’t always succeed in following the above.

[daniel1212]

VC II was a pastoral council. No pope has spoken infallibly since prior to 1962. Does that help?

So and unless a teaching is infallible then it can be ignored (parts of encyclicals, bulls, etc.). And there is disagreement as to this and what is infallible Thus you need an infallible list of all infallible teachings.

And according to thee, despite what other RCs say, V2 did not speak infallibly in "clarifying" past infallible teaching (such as EENS). I can see why other RCs hold you to be in schism.

Not that you do not have a case, but in criticizing V2 one TRC site states,

Paul VI, in closing the Council stated that "the teaching authority of the Church, even though not wishing to issue extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements, has made thoroughly known its authoritative teaching." Still later he stated that the Council "avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner dogmas endowed with the note of infallibility" but that it conferred on its teachings "the value of the supreme ordinary Magisterium" (Speech of Jan 12, 1966), and that "it has as much authority and far greater importance than the Council of Nicea". Elsewhere he has called it "the greatest of Councils", and "even greater than the Council of Trent."[10]

Perhaps the most clear cut statement is to be found in a letter to Archbishop Lefebvre demanding his submission to the post-Conciliar Church: You have no right any more to bring up the distinction between the doctrinal and the pastoral that you use to support your acceptance of certain texts of Vatican Council II and your rejection of others. It is true that the matters decided in any Council do not all call for an assent of the same quality; only what the Council affirms in its 'definitions' as a truth of faith or as bound up with faith requires the assent of faith. Nevertheless, the rest also form a part of the SOLEMN MAGISTERIUM of the Church, to be trustingly accepted and sincerely put into practice by every Catholic."[11] -http://www.the-pope.com/wvat2tec.html#_ftn10

[ebb tide]

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!" Pope Francis

Does this mean going to convince someone to become became Catholic? No, no, no! You are just reaching out to meet him, he is your brother! That is enough. You reach out to help them, the rest is done by Jesus, by the Holy Spirit. Pope Francis.

I'm just the messenger; Pope Francis is the author.

[ebb tide]

So and unless a teaching is infallible then it can be ignored (parts of encyclicals, bulls, etc.)

Quick answer: No; unless they contradict perennial Church teaching. And much of VC II does.

If you are truly interested in Catholicism, please PM me. You are obviously not "invincibly ignorant".

[vladimir998]

I don’t think you’re a faithful messenger. I didn’t see you deliver this message:

http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/pope-francis-calls-all-catholics-to-evangelize

or this:

http://www.news.va/en/news/vatican-cardinal-filoni-pope-francis-exhorts-us-to

or this:

http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/pope-francis-the-best-instrument-to-evangelize-young-people-is-other-young-people

or this:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100225812/pope-francis-embraces-the-ordinariate-and-increases-its-power-to-evangelise/

or this:

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=51074

and I could go on.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“I wonder how the Jewish friend of the Pope will feel when he dies and discovers that he failed to believe in Jesus Christ and cannot be saved? Will he wonder why his friend thought his conversion was unimportant?”

---

More than likely they’ll be burning right next to each other, or at least within screaming distance, assuming the Rabbi doesn’t repent. So, I imagine he’ll be able to settle his curiosity by asking the Pope directly!

[ebb tide]

I quoted the Pope, verbatim, with nothing added.

Your links don’t.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"...those who defend the Pope for every statement he makes like atheists can go to Heaven, as long as they follow their idea of "Good"

He didn't say that. In that much misquoted letter which he sent to the atheist editor of La Reppublica, Pope Francis actually began that part of the conversation by saying "Premise that – and it’s the fundamental thing – the mercy of God has no limits if one turns to him with a sincere and contrite heart."

It's possible that part wasn't quoted in whatever garbled version of it you might have read. Tendentious accounts tend to cut it out; tendentious readers tend to pass over over it unseeingly, as if that weren't his premise; as if it weren't underlined as fundamental; as if he hadn't said it at all.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Chesterbelloc, you have us done great service in quoting this gem from the blessed Ignatius. I am going to “retweet” it frequently in this forum til I wear it out!

[ebb tide]

Do you ever try to convert anyone to Catholicism? If you do, you’re disobeying the Pope. Are you strong-arming and “proselytizing” your children by dragging them to Mass on Sundays?

Do you remember your Confirmation? When you became a soldier of Christ?

[vladimir998]

You quoted a report by someone who talked to Pope Francis. I quoted reports by people who talked to Pope Francis.

[Mrs. Don-o]

First sentence: Jesus is the Redeemer of the World. This is dogma.

Second sentence: he doesn't mean you NEVER convince him to be a Catholic. Just reaching out and helping your brother, neighbor-love, may well be enough --- it may be literally all you can do --- at some time, in some place, or with some particular person. (Then, as the Pope's insight suggests, you pray for the Holy Spirit to do the rest.)

When Jesus commanded us, "Go and do likewise," he was talking about a Samaritan who responded compassionately and helped a Jew. This defines what neighbor-love is. This is Scripture. It's not anti-Evangelical. It is the Evangelion.

[ebb tide]

I accept the Pope’s premise, I reject his conclusion.

Care to post, in full context, whatever version you are referencing? Then we’ll be on the same page.

[ebb tide]

Nope. I quoted Pope Francis, verbatim. And no one his leper curial court has denied it.

[vladimir998]

Is there a recording of Pope Francis’ conversation?