Posted on 10/04/2013 2:37:31 PM PDT by ebb tide
In the aftermath of yesterday’s blog post, it has become evident that Fairytale Fever has reached near epidemic proportions among the Catholic population.
With the well-deserved criticism of Interviewgate 2 making its rounds, in particular as it relates to the pope’s insistence that “proselytism is solemn nonsense,” the papal apologizers set out on an archaeological dig in search of evidence that Francis’ remarks are the stuff of papal precedent.
Well, they didn’t have to dig very deep. They couldn’t, for the simple reason that the Holy Roman Catholic Church’s distaste for her God-given mission is a post-conciliar phenomenon.
Sure, they unearthed quotes from John Paul II and Benedict XVI rejecting proselytism, but who’s kidding who? The Assisi popes are the poster boys of false ecumenism, which is all about dialogue that eventually leads to… you guessed, more dialogue.
In any case, missing from both their reading of Francis, and their defense of the same, is any semblance of context.
In the case of the alleged precedent-setter-popes, John Paul II and Benedict XVI, one will find in most cases that their negative commentary concerning proselytism is ordered toward addressing coercion, or forced conversions gained via unethical behavior. For example, the oldest quote I’ve found dates all the way back to 1995, wherein John Paul II said during a visit to Sri Lanka, “[the Church] firmly rejects proselytism and the use of unethical means to gain conversions.”
Why conflate “proselytism” with “unethical means” in the first place? Who knows, perhaps this is just another example of that favored modernist pastime, redefining words. In any case, some definitions are in order, but first, let’s revisit the interview to contextualize Pope Francis’ commentary.
My friends think it is you want to convert me. He smiles again and replies: “Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense… The translation isn’t exact. The original Italian text has been published on the Holy See’s website, which in addition to undermining the argument that the pope has no intention of revealing his papal agenda via a newspaper interview, it can be a valuable resource.
The operative part reads, Anche i miei amici pensano che sia Lei a volermi convertire.
My Italian isn’t terrific by any means, but I know enough to understand that Scalfari is more properly telling the pope that his friends think that the pope “wants me to convert.”
At this point, I shouldn’t have to point out that we’re looking at apples and oranges, but I will.
To the (apparently) ludicrous notion that the Vicar of Christ may (get this) want an atheist with whom he has developed a cordial relationship to convert to the one true faith, the pope promptly replied, “Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense.”
Are you paying attention? The pope is saying that the very idea that he may harbor a desire to see Scalfari convert to the Catholic faith is “nonsense!” That’s the context, like it or not.
Now on to some definitions.
First, let’s revisit the mission of the Church as given by Christ.
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever that I have commanded you.” (Matthew 20:19-20)
As for proselytism, this is nothing more insidious than actively seeking proselytes; i.e., converts.
That’s it, and the Church has, until very recently, been doing exactly this by means of teaching, preaching and exhorting from day one. (See St. Peter the Proselytizer in action in Acts 2 if you don’t believe me.)
Part of the redefinition effort concerns setting up a false dichotomy relative to the mission of the Church, pitting the passive luring of converts by way of godly example and genuine kindness, against active calls to conversion through preaching and teaching.
Heaven is full of saints who did all of these things to the exclusion of none, as each constitutes a necessary component of authentic love of neighbor.
Then there is the more sophomoric notion that “proselytism” refers exclusively to an effort to create converts solely by means of condemnation and conquest. This is wholesale fantasy that just barely qualifies for refutation.
There isn’t one credible voice among the critics of Pope Francis who espouse anything like this. In any case, this make believe scenario couldn’t be further away from the context with which Francis offered his own regrettable comments.
In short, the post-conciliar modernists can labor to convince themselves and others that “proselytism” is a war crime all they want, but the fact remains, it is nothing more than the very mission of the Church.
So was Mary inside the Catholic Church?
So, Was Mary’s blood shed?
Let me give you a little advice. Pay no attention to any Popes after Pope Pius XII. Pay no attention to the Second Vatican council. The former were/are modernists; the latter a purely pastoral council. If you can do those two things, you and even Catholics will never be confused about the true Catholic Faith.
Don’t expect me to defend one jota of VC II or any pope since Pius XII. I’m sure there are Catholics on this forum who will gladly do so, however, and that will just confuse you more.
The Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mother of the Catholic Church. So, yes, she is inside the Catholic Church.
Ah, the “no true Scotsman..”argument.
If the catholic church is infallible then they would need no councils to correct bad practice.
If there are not, the councils can not be sure to give good guidance.
So does she send you email?
Ah, yes, the UNITY of the Roman Catholic Church! Much hailed, seldom evidenced. I wonder what some of the other Catholics here think about your views concerning the "infallibility" of the Church? I'm willing to bet they'll be quiet as church mice.
Infallibility was a present that the pope gave himself when he lost the Papal states. Of course in military matters he had proven himself fallible indeed.
comes right after Sola Scriptura....when you visit a funeral home for one of your friends, family...don't you say a prayer in their remembrance>>> why do you do that??? Maybe to ask God to have mercy on their soul and speed them to Hraven???? or do you just say...see ya, hope you make it!!
well, there is the protestant denomination that passes poisonous snakes around and challenges God to prove that they are wrong....
if you have thge choice of the two(and you do) take Purgatory....after proper repentence for your sins, you are cleansed and zipped right up to Heaven.....can't fail. However, if you are in Hell...it's pretty much over...Hell is where those who know Christ, know what He designed for our salvation, and know the religion that He originated...and then deny it, .....go.
nope, you have to pay real close attention, doesn't happen often, but when the Pope declares that he is speaking ex cathedra he speaks with infallible truth.....always has, always will.
it isn't.
the Catholic Church is NOT infallible....sometimes she makes unusual mistakes....however, the Pope IS infallible..cannot err in matters of faith and morals...
Okay, even though this quote of yours is on a different thread, it's on the same subject here. You just got done saying:
INFALLIBLE...read it, get used to it, realize what is truth....in matters of faith and morals the Catholic Church CANNOT err.
Are you now canceling your previous opinion to say that it's NOT the Catholic Church which is infallible and cannot err on matters of faith and morals but only the "Pope" when he speaks "ex cathedra"???
What's the problem here with the originator of this thread claiming that anything after Pope Pius XII is NOT accepted? This includes everything that came out of Vatican II, which WAS official teaching from a Pope. I'd like to hear how you answer him and those like him who believe that ONLY they are the true Catholics.
YOPIOD?
Your own personal interpretation of dogma?
And along comes Vatican 2 and now the CCC says..... 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
Now, here is an interesting thing. When *I* say that the Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church, and provide the exact same sources as you have, I get absolutely shredded. Accusations of not being *properly catechized* fly fast and furious. It's a outright feeding frenzy.
And yet, here a Catholic says the exact same thing and all I hear is *crickets*.
According to some Catholics.....
No. It's too late then for me to have any impact on their salvation.
Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
The order is this.
1) Die
2) Judgment
Whatever state they are in when they die determines where they spend eternity for good. Their decision is sealed at death.
That's found in the same verse that Catholics like to use as a proof text to justify the demand for water baptism saving.
Mark 16:15-18 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Why do Catholics cherry pick what they like to believe out of a passage. The same Jesus who said believe and be baptized also said "And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover" in the very next breath.
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