Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.
Church Age Tribulation
Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:
"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).
Later it was also said,
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).
Paul tells us,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).
Peter noted the following:
"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).
Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.
Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:
And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.
Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]
I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.
The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.
The Tribulation
The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).
It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour
Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:
"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
In the same epistle he says,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).
Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.
Revelation 3:10 says,
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.
Conclusion
The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.
I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.
Joh 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
He was still consecrated for the performance of the First Fruits offering before the Throne. Notice some hours later, when he can be touched... That was after his return... The High Priest is consecrated and in seclusion until the offering is made, then he can go out among the people.
Yeshua’s own words prove that he had to ascend before being touched.
Sigh! I didn’t leave out scripture however did I? James knew, Paul knew, Josephus knew, God knows. Now stop with that nonsense to me.
I am mid-trib - I think there will be martyrdom, and I think that the 'two sticks' will be made one. I think that the two witnesses are a type of Ephraim and Judah, Christians and Jews... and I think that they are raised from the dead and told to 'Come up here', just as the last trumpet (of the seven) begins to sound, is the precise moment of the rapture... I think the Bride is in heaven at the wedding feast while the bowls and vials are poured out, and after the feast, Yeshua, with the bride in tow, returns to earth to establish His Kingdom.
I think that the Fall Feasts will happen in real time, and precisely to the minute (no symbolic timing), just as the spring feasts happened in real time. Hence, while you are looking for years, I am looking for days.
Show where Thomas actually touched Jesus. Do you not think that Jesus knew he wouldn’t really need to touch Him? Your belief is based on speculation.
And who was it that touched Him? Show the book, chapter and verse please. And please don’t use Thomas words because it never say he actually touched Jesus.
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Not so!
Isa.56Without hope?
[1] Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
[2] Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
[4] For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
[8] The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
No!
>> “Your belief is based on speculation” <<
.
No, his belief is from study of Torah.
You leave yourself unable to understand any scripture because you do not know Torah, you do not understand the feasts, and the things that they prophecy.
One cannot possibly grasp any prophecy without Torah and the feasts.
>>I think that the two witnesses are a type of Ephraim and Judah, Christians and Jews...<<
So the anti Christ kills both a type of Ephraim and Judah? And that they lay in the streets for three days while everyone celebrates their deaths and then they are raised?
Revelation 11: 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
You don’t see the number of problems you have with the above passage?
>> “And please don’t use Thomas words because it never say he actually touched Jesus.” <<
You grasp at straw!
He invited Thomas to touch him, while he had cautioned the women earlier not to touch him.
It is totally absurd to believe that through the 7 sabbaths to Shavuot without being touched!
If you knew the instructions and traditions of Passover and First fruits, and exactly what they meant, you would never say these silly things.
Oh, now you know what I know and don’t know. You clairvoyant or something?
I do know Torah and do know the feasts of God. It that knowledge that helps convince me along with the New Testament that what you teach is contra scripture.
Quite the opposite - The Church was baptized in the Red Sea, It stood at Sinai, and took bread and wine from the hand of Melchizedek. There is only ONE congregation. How can it replace itself?
Again, you seem to forget who is grafted onto whom... who inherits whom...
>> “You don’t see the number of problems you have with the above passage?” <<
.
Its you not Romer1 that has problems here.
You failed to note any problems if you saw any.
Your post supports what Romer posted to be his belief reasonably well.
You do not understand the prophecy of Ezekiel at all if what you post is really what you believe.
smoke and nothing else!
If you know the feasts, then how is it that you fail to understand how Yeshua was fulfilling the role of Cohen Gadol?
He had to follow it totally.
And so it shall be after the tribulation. Please show us where any of those were included prior to Christ’s death and resurrection.
BTW: There were TWO ways Gentiles could gain their salvation before the wall was taken down. Do you know what they were?
Actually I don’t add to what scripture says.
>> He invited Thomas to touch him, while he had cautioned the women earlier not to touch him.<<
Again I ask, show where Thomas touched Him. Jesus knew he wouldn’t need to just as He knew those who heard the “eat my flesh” would leave and Judas would betray Him.
>> It is totally absurd to believe that through the 7 sabbaths to Shavuot without being touched!<<
You keep preaching man’s wisdom. I’ll stay with scripture thank you.
>> If you knew the instructions and traditions of Passover and First fruits, and exactly what they meant, you would never say these silly things.<<
The fall feasts are still to be fulfilled but true believers will be taken from this world before they are.
Nice word play game! So the answer is yes in that you do not distinguish between the promises to Israel and the church. Nuff said.
So who are the 12,000 from each tribe during the tribulation?
Why make the Christian believer different from the unbeliever?
Israel had a clear advantage while the Gentiles were at a clear disadvantage.
But not all who are called Israel ARE Israel - Within the microcosm of the nation of Israel is the picture of believers and unbelievers. The circumcision is of no avail. A sinning unbelieving Israelite has no more advantage than an unbelieving gentile.
The Gentile Disadvantage: "Gentiles"; "Uncircumcised", "Without Christ", "Aliens from Israel"; "Strangers from the covenants"; "Without God"; "Having no hope". All of these were Gentile's state before God.
Yet there are examples of believing gentiles within Israel, living among them as brethren... Adopted.
And please DO try to find your 'middle wall' in the Torah. There is no such instruction, beyond the defensive perimeter of the Tabernacle. It is a tradition of men, present in Herod's temple, where the Ark never resided. Folks like to talk about the curtain being torn as signifying access to all to the Holy of Holies - But it also exposed the lie. Part of that lie is the wall of partition.
Here is a Messianic Jewish point of view on the 'wall of partition'.
One must be careful to understand the difference between Torah and Talmudism... Very hard for Christians to do.
I am trying my best to go FROM the BEGINNING to where we are now, but you are trying to mix NOW with THEN, and it won't work. ...clearing throat...2 Tim. 2:15.
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