Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.
Church Age Tribulation
Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:
"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).
Later it was also said,
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).
Paul tells us,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).
Peter noted the following:
"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).
Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.
Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:
And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.
Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]
I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.
The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.
The Tribulation
The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).
It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour
Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:
"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
In the same epistle he says,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).
Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.
Revelation 3:10 says,
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.
Conclusion
The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.
I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
God does have something to say to those who say they are Jews and are not.
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Replacement theology will cause all kinds of problems.
>> “God does have something to say to those who say they are Jews and are not.” <<
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Yes, he certainly does.
But show me what he says to those that haven’t the slightest idea.
You appear to be claiming knowledge that you cannot possibly have. Knowledge that Yehova has not given us yet.
He did what? Could you please show the scripture you use for that?
So you do believe in a rapture but not at the beginning of the tribulation. Which means either sometime mid trib or post trib. Do I have that right?
During this age of grace until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in that would be correct. After the body of Christ is taken from this world the next seven years of the tribulation God will again be dealing with the Jews under the law.
>>And that the wall of separation is removed. yet somehow, Israel (to whom all the covenants belong) must bear the wrath of YHWH, while all the Christians go skipping off to heaven, not only avoiding any martyrdom in the tribulation, but hidden also from the wrath...<<
That would be correct. It’s all explained rather clearly in prophesy.
>>DEM JOOOOOS! They deserve it, eh?<<
I only listen to what God has to say on the matter.
>>You seem to forget that the OT has YHWH hiding Israel in the folds of his robe while his wrath is poured out...<<
No I didn’t forget and He does indeed hide those 12,000 from each tribe during the last 3 ½ years of the tribulation after the anti Christ takes over the temple.
There are many things going on here - But I think the general answer to your question is that YHWH talks to us with pictures. All of national Israel is a shadow picture - a miniature in a box, as it were, of what will eventually be, in terms simple enough to digest - Think crayons here.
To be simplistic, The Temple is God, the priests serve him, and minister to the general population.
The end result, when it is finished, God is God, all of Israel are the priests that serve him, and minister to the whole world as the population. The Order of Melchizedek is the setup for that.
The Abrahamic Covenant was established by God to a specific nation: Israel. Not the whole world. Meanwhile, what were the Gentile nations promised? Anything? The same thing Israel was promised? Both? Neither?
Do not forget that the main purpose is to save the Sons of Adam, not Jacob - Israel was the first-stage roll-out. The Christians are the second-stage. I think the Kingdom is the final high-production stage.
You seem to see the mystery of YHWH as a sudden revelation, I see it being rolled out, all the way along.
I think you need to spend some time in the beginning - Israel was never supposed to be insular - they were supposed to evangelize. 'In the world, but not of the world' is not just a Christian concept. From it's very beginning, the Temple was declared a place for all nations to come and worship YHWH... And it will be so.
I chose to overlook that comment and move on since that type of vile typically resurfaces later if it’s coming from a mind set.
So why did you then post that to us? Anti Semitism comes in many forms. Denying their unique existence to this day and into the future is contrary to God’s promises to them. The church did not replace, supplant, or in any way change the fact that Israel was and is to this day and into the future His chosen people.
Slightest idea about what?
>> You appear to be claiming knowledge that you cannot possibly have. Knowledge that Yehova has not given us yet.<<
LOL What knowledge don’t I have?
Why don’t you just come out and say that you believe that the church has basically replaced the nation of Israel in God’s eyes?
The knowledge of who is of the northern tribes.
We have no way of positively knowing who they are.
That plays in heavily on the assertion you made WRT whether one is grafted in or “root.”
>> “Why don’t you just come out and say that you believe that the church has basically replaced the nation of Israel in God’s eyes?” <<
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He has already said that he positively does not believe that.
>> “He did what? Could you please show the scripture you use for that?” <<
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I believe he means this:
Luke.24
[1] Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
[2] And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
[3] And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
[4] And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
[5] And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
[6] He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
[7] Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
[8] And they remembered his words,
[9] And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
And this:
[13] And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
[14] And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
[15] And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
[16] But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
[17] And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
[18] And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass therein these days?
[19] And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
[20] And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
[21] But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
[22] Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
[23] And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
[24] And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
[25] Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
[26] Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
And then there was this:
Acts.1
[1] The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
[2] Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
[3] To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
[4] And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
[5] For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
[6] When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
[7] And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
[8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
[10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
[11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Rom. 1 demonstrates the Gentile's alienation from God was their own doing. Their history of rebellion, evil thinking and self-will is what God declares in Rom. 1. "Wherefore God gave them up"(v.24); "For this cause God gave them up"(v.26); and "God gave them over"(v.28).
Israel had a clear advantage while the Gentiles were at a clear disadvantage. Read Rom. 9:4,5 and compare that to Eph. 2:11,12 and see:
Israel's Advantage: "Who are the Israelites"; "The adoption"; "To whom Christ came"; "Whose are the fathers"; "Covenants and the Law"; "The service of God"; "The promises", all of these were Israel's advantages under the Abrahamic Covenant, the "Covenant of Circumcision" (Acts 7:8).
The Gentile Disadvantage: "Gentiles"; "Uncircumcised", "Without Christ", "Aliens from Israel"; "Strangers from the covenants"; "Without God"; "Having no hope". All of these were Gentile's state before God. And this is true throughout the OT, Matt. Mark Luke John and the beginning of Acts, up until that middle wall of partition that was separating us was taken down, by God.
But God didn't stop with "circumcision" as the only part of the Abrahamic Covenant. He then added the Law. It was given to the nation Israel ALONE, and was added (Gal. 3:19) to the Covenant of Circumcision. It STRENGTHENED and FORTIFIED the middle wall of partition. HE WANTED that wall to be up, separating Jews from Gentiles.
James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Do you suppose the Holy Spirit didn’t know what He was having James write? The Celts, Angles etc were pagan, heathen and barbarous. The 12 Tribes that James is writing to were attending synagogue.
James 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly (Greek: sunagógé) a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
They knew clearly where those 10 northern tribes were and were writing to them. They also acknowledged they were the sons of Abraham.
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Paul knew where all the twelve tribes were and that they were serving God.
Acts 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 7 unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come.
Even Josephus knew where and who they were.
"There are two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while until now there have been ten tribes beyond the Euphrates who number into the countless myriads whose number cannot be ascertained" (Antiquities XI. 133).
And God also knows and will separated 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes during the tribulation.
So please don’t preach any of the “lost tribe” nonsense to me. It’s perfectly clear that they were still 12 tribes, James, Paul, Josephus, and God all knew where and who they were. And you can bet the Jews know today.
I recall some fudge words because I used a specific term but I want to know if both you and he believe that Israel is still a unique people today to be given special attention again during the tribulation.
You left out Japan, China, India, etc.
>> “Even Josephus knew where and who they were.” <<
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I really thought you were smarter than that.
You may believe that but neither one of those passages even suggests that there was an ascension of Jesus prior to the one witnessed by the apostles.
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