Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
God does have something to say to those who say they are Jews and are not.
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Replacement theology will cause all kinds of problems.
>> “God does have something to say to those who say they are Jews and are not.” <<
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Yes, he certainly does.
But show me what he says to those that haven’t the slightest idea.
You appear to be claiming knowledge that you cannot possibly have. Knowledge that Yehova has not given us yet.
He did what? Could you please show the scripture you use for that?
So you do believe in a rapture but not at the beginning of the tribulation. Which means either sometime mid trib or post trib. Do I have that right?
During this age of grace until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in that would be correct. After the body of Christ is taken from this world the next seven years of the tribulation God will again be dealing with the Jews under the law.
>>And that the wall of separation is removed. yet somehow, Israel (to whom all the covenants belong) must bear the wrath of YHWH, while all the Christians go skipping off to heaven, not only avoiding any martyrdom in the tribulation, but hidden also from the wrath...<<
That would be correct. It’s all explained rather clearly in prophesy.
>>DEM JOOOOOS! They deserve it, eh?<<
I only listen to what God has to say on the matter.
>>You seem to forget that the OT has YHWH hiding Israel in the folds of his robe while his wrath is poured out...<<
No I didn’t forget and He does indeed hide those 12,000 from each tribe during the last 3 ½ years of the tribulation after the anti Christ takes over the temple.
There are many things going on here - But I think the general answer to your question is that YHWH talks to us with pictures. All of national Israel is a shadow picture - a miniature in a box, as it were, of what will eventually be, in terms simple enough to digest - Think crayons here.
To be simplistic, The Temple is God, the priests serve him, and minister to the general population.
The end result, when it is finished, God is God, all of Israel are the priests that serve him, and minister to the whole world as the population. The Order of Melchizedek is the setup for that.
The Abrahamic Covenant was established by God to a specific nation: Israel. Not the whole world. Meanwhile, what were the Gentile nations promised? Anything? The same thing Israel was promised? Both? Neither?
Do not forget that the main purpose is to save the Sons of Adam, not Jacob - Israel was the first-stage roll-out. The Christians are the second-stage. I think the Kingdom is the final high-production stage.
You seem to see the mystery of YHWH as a sudden revelation, I see it being rolled out, all the way along.
I think you need to spend some time in the beginning - Israel was never supposed to be insular - they were supposed to evangelize. 'In the world, but not of the world' is not just a Christian concept. From it's very beginning, the Temple was declared a place for all nations to come and worship YHWH... And it will be so.
I chose to overlook that comment and move on since that type of vile typically resurfaces later if it’s coming from a mind set.
So why did you then post that to us? Anti Semitism comes in many forms. Denying their unique existence to this day and into the future is contrary to God’s promises to them. The church did not replace, supplant, or in any way change the fact that Israel was and is to this day and into the future His chosen people.
Slightest idea about what?
>> You appear to be claiming knowledge that you cannot possibly have. Knowledge that Yehova has not given us yet.<<
LOL What knowledge don’t I have?
Why don’t you just come out and say that you believe that the church has basically replaced the nation of Israel in God’s eyes?
The knowledge of who is of the northern tribes.
We have no way of positively knowing who they are.
That plays in heavily on the assertion you made WRT whether one is grafted in or “root.”
>> “Why don’t you just come out and say that you believe that the church has basically replaced the nation of Israel in God’s eyes?” <<
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He has already said that he positively does not believe that.
>> “He did what? Could you please show the scripture you use for that?” <<
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I believe he means this:
Luke.24
[1] Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
[2] And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
[3] And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
[4] And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
[5] And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
[6] He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
[7] Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
[8] And they remembered his words,
[9] And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
And this:
[13] And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
[14] And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
[15] And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
[16] But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
[17] And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
[18] And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass therein these days?
[19] And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
[20] And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
[21] But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
[22] Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
[23] And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
[24] And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
[25] Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
[26] Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
And then there was this:
Acts.1
[1] The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
[2] Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
[3] To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
[4] And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
[5] For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
[6] When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
[7] And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
[8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
[10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
[11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Rom. 1 demonstrates the Gentile's alienation from God was their own doing. Their history of rebellion, evil thinking and self-will is what God declares in Rom. 1. "Wherefore God gave them up"(v.24); "For this cause God gave them up"(v.26); and "God gave them over"(v.28).
Israel had a clear advantage while the Gentiles were at a clear disadvantage. Read Rom. 9:4,5 and compare that to Eph. 2:11,12 and see:
Israel's Advantage: "Who are the Israelites"; "The adoption"; "To whom Christ came"; "Whose are the fathers"; "Covenants and the Law"; "The service of God"; "The promises", all of these were Israel's advantages under the Abrahamic Covenant, the "Covenant of Circumcision" (Acts 7:8).
The Gentile Disadvantage: "Gentiles"; "Uncircumcised", "Without Christ", "Aliens from Israel"; "Strangers from the covenants"; "Without God"; "Having no hope". All of these were Gentile's state before God. And this is true throughout the OT, Matt. Mark Luke John and the beginning of Acts, up until that middle wall of partition that was separating us was taken down, by God.
But God didn't stop with "circumcision" as the only part of the Abrahamic Covenant. He then added the Law. It was given to the nation Israel ALONE, and was added (Gal. 3:19) to the Covenant of Circumcision. It STRENGTHENED and FORTIFIED the middle wall of partition. HE WANTED that wall to be up, separating Jews from Gentiles.
James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Do you suppose the Holy Spirit didn’t know what He was having James write? The Celts, Angles etc were pagan, heathen and barbarous. The 12 Tribes that James is writing to were attending synagogue.
James 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly (Greek: sunagógé) a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
They knew clearly where those 10 northern tribes were and were writing to them. They also acknowledged they were the sons of Abraham.
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Paul knew where all the twelve tribes were and that they were serving God.
Acts 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 7 unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come.
Even Josephus knew where and who they were.
"There are two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while until now there have been ten tribes beyond the Euphrates who number into the countless myriads whose number cannot be ascertained" (Antiquities XI. 133).
And God also knows and will separated 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes during the tribulation.
So please don’t preach any of the “lost tribe” nonsense to me. It’s perfectly clear that they were still 12 tribes, James, Paul, Josephus, and God all knew where and who they were. And you can bet the Jews know today.
I recall some fudge words because I used a specific term but I want to know if both you and he believe that Israel is still a unique people today to be given special attention again during the tribulation.
You left out Japan, China, India, etc.
>> “Even Josephus knew where and who they were.” <<
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I really thought you were smarter than that.
You may believe that but neither one of those passages even suggests that there was an ascension of Jesus prior to the one witnessed by the apostles.
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