Posted on 09/17/2013 8:25:21 PM PDT by jodyel
"Unless You Eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and Drink His Blood You Have No Life In You"
Are these words of Jesus from John 6:53 to be taken literally or figuratively? The Roman Catholic Church teaches the context of John chapter six and the above headlined verse 53 are literal. Thus Jesus is giving absolute and unconditional requirements for eternal life. In fact, this literal interpretation forms the foundation for Rome's doctrine of transubstantiation -- the miraculous changing of bread and wine into the living Christ, His body and blood, soul and divinity. Each Catholic priest is said to have the power to call Jesus down from the right hand of the Father when he elevates the wafer and whispers the words "Hoc corpus meus est." Catholics believe as they consume the lifeless wafer they are actually eating and drinking the living body and blood of Jesus Christ. This is a vital and important step in their salvation and a doctrine they must believe and accept to become a Catholic.
If priests indeed have the exclusive power to change finite bread and wine into the body and blood of the infinite Christ, and if indeed consuming His body and blood is necessary for salvation, then the whole world must become Catholic to escape the wrath of God. On the other hand, if Jesus was speaking in figurative language then this teaching becomes the most blasphemous and deceptive hoax any religion could impose on its people. There is no middle ground. Therefore the question of utmost importance is -- Was the message Jesus conveyed to the Jewish multitude to be understood as literal or figurative? Rome has never presented a good argument for defending its literal interpretation. Yet there are at least seven convincing reasons why this passage must be taken figuratively.
Counterfeit Miracle
There is no Biblical precedent where something supernatural occurred where the outward evidence indicated no miracle had taken place. (The wafer and wine look, taste and feel the same before and after the supposed miracle of transubstantion). When Jesus changed water into wine, all the elements of water changed into the actual elements of wine.
Drinking Blood Forbidden
The Law of Moses strictly forbade Jews from drinking blood (Leviticus 17:10-14) A literal interpretation would have Jesus teaching the Jews to disobey the Mosaic Law. This would have been enough cause to persecute Jesus. (See John 5:16)
Biblical Disharmony
When John 6:53 is interpreted literally it is in disharmony with the rest of the Bible. "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you," gives no hope of eternal life to any Christian who has not consumed the literal body and blood of Christ. It opposes hundreds of Scriptures that declare justification and salvation are by faith alone in Christ.
Produces Dilemma
It appears that the "eating and drinking" in verse 6:54 and the "believing" in verse 6:40 produce the same result - eternal life. If both are literal we have a dilemma. What if a person "believes" but does not "eat or drink"? Or what if a person "eats and drinks" but does not "believe?" This could happen any time a non-believer walked into a Catholic Church and received the Eucharist. Does this person have eternal life because he met one of the requirements but not the other? The only possible way to harmonize these two verses is to accept one verse as figurative and one as literal.
Figurative In Old Testament
The Jews were familiar with "eating and drinking" being used figuratively in the Old Testament to describe the appropriation of divine blessings to one's innermost being. It was God's way of providing spiritual nourishment for the soul. (See Jeremiah 15:16; Isaiah 55:1-3; and Ezekiel 2:8, 3:1)
Jesus Confirmed
Jesus informed His disciples there were times when He spoke figuratively (John 16:25) and often used that type of language to describe Himself. The Gospel of John records seven figurative declarations Jesus made of Himself -- "the bread of life" (6:48), "the light of the world" (8:12), "the door" (10:9), "the good shepherd" (10:11), "the resurrection and the life" (11:25), "the way, the truth and the life" (14:6), and "the true vine" (15:1). He also referred to His body as the temple (2:19).
Words Were Spiritual
Jesus ended this teaching by revealing "the words I have spoken to you are spirit" (6:63). As with each of the seven miracles in John's Gospel, Jesus uses the miracle to convey a spiritual truth. Here Jesus has just multiplied the loaves and fish and uses a human analogy to teach the necessity of spiritual nourishment. This is consistent with His teaching on how we are to worship God. "God is Spirit and His worshippers must worship in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). As we worship Christ He is present spiritually, not physically. In fact, Jesus can only be bodily present at one place at one time. His omnipresence refers only to His spirit. It is impossible for Christ to be bodily present in thousands of Catholic Churches around the world.
When Jesus is received spiritually, one time in the heart, there is no need to receive him physically,
REALLY?
Why, the great masses of OTHERS who are NOT affiliated with a MASSIVE religious organization.
HMMMmmm...
That sounds DANGEROUSLY close to a person THINKING for themselves!
You just might be in line to be POPE someday!!
(Just don't be a BAD one...)
Rubes and hicks!
--Catholic_Wannabe_Dude(Only WE have the CORRECT form of WORSHIP!!!)
At 1/3; you qualify to be at least a minion.
Right Nana?
My point all along has been that once one is born again one will leave a church organization, such as Catholicism, that teaches so much error and unscriptural doctrine.
How does a born again believer filled with the Holy Spirit take mass or this Eucharist and justify it? That is where we part company. No one, born again of the Spirit, stays in a false religion.
I have heard some say though that there are born again Mormons and Catholics who stay where they are out of fear of losing family and friends. If that is the case, then I don’t believe they were ever born again and Spirit filled.
The Holy Spirit is living in us precisely to lead us out of error and fear and into truth, so there can be no excuse to stay. One’s comfort, and friends, and family are not above Chrsit and we are called to leave them behind if they hinder our walk with Him.
Do this in remembrance of me was an ASTONDISHING statement that jerked the chain of Judism away from the meal; to Whom it represented.
Thew Jews STILL have an empty chair at the table when they partake of Passover to this very day.
They STILL fail to realize that JESUS sits in it.
What, Elsie?
Some of your stuff is lost on me. lol
Oh at least...
You need to CONTINUALLY reminded of past sins; mere Human!!!
*It would be built on Simon Peter, Mt 16:18.
Is Peter the 'rock'?
As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'
BEFORE the following verses came along.....
NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. NIV Luke 6:48
He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
4. As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him-- 5. you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6. For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 7. Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, " 8. and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS??? NIV Genesis 49:24-25 24. But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel, 25. because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty, who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb. NIV Numbers 20:8
"Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink." NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he. NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior. NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth. NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
30. How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up? 31. For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede. NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
"There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God. NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
2. He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; 3. my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me. NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God? NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
"The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior! NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
3. The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God, 4. he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.' NIV Psalms 18:2
The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. NIV Psalms 18:31
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God? NIV Psalms 18:46
The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior! NIV Psalms 19:14
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. NIV Psalms 28:1
To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.
NIV Psalms 31:2-3
2. Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me. 3. Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me. NIV Psalms 42:9
I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?" NIV Psalms 62:2
He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken. NIV Psalms 62:6
He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken. NIV Psalms 62:7
My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge. NIV Psalms 71:3
Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress. NIV Psalms 78:35
They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer. NIV Psalms 89:26
He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.' NIV Psalms 92:14-15
14. They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green, 15. proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him." NIV Psalms 95:1
Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation. NIV Psalms 144:1
Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. NIV Isaiah 17:10
You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress. NIV Isaiah 26:4
Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal. NIV Isaiah 30:29
And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel. NIV Isaiah 44:8
Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." NIV Habakkuk 1:12 O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish. |
And now you know the Biblical position!
Do unto others...
No; the THANKS! goes to Catholicism, for PROVING that the Bible is not nearly enough!
John 6:29 is unCatholic??
hint: 3 times...
Unless, however, folks think that there are others in the spiritual realm that are helping them do the WORKS that GOD requires.
“ALL Catholic believers are “born again” and have been so for 2,000 years. Where have you been and how do you get to make the rules of Christianity???? We, Catholics were here for 1,600 years and then along you came, reinterpreting scripture (with which the Catholics provided you ) and remaking the rules...great gig if you can get it!!!”
I just have to laugh at this because this is exactly what the former priest and nun were saying before they were born again.....that they were so self-righteous and insulted by the truth. How dare anyone tell them they were not saved, etc., etc.?
This post reeks of self-righteousness and pride. This is one of the most perfect examples of this I have come across on the forum.
We, Catholics...we provided you scripture, who are you to tell us what to do, yada, yada, yada.
Seems to me that anyone who truly knows Jesus wants others to know Jesus, but not so here. This one just wants us all in our place under the thumb of Roman Catholicism.
What I really hate the most is when all these so sure and so smug people finally do know the truth and it is too late.....just like the story of the elderly Catholic that colt told.
I also have to say that true believers do not talk and act this way either, so a good example of knowing and fruit.
Well; it OUGHT to be a word!
astounding and astonishing at once!
only SOME?
(1/3 of 666)
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, ' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.' |
LOL What are yours? One aunt raised a kid from birth that was not hers but fathered by her husband. She raised the child alone as her own. She put him through college for the ministry he was called too. She was not a rich person. Another ones fruits was being a caregiver to two disabled grandkids and helping raise them into adulthood. For her being a Catholic & me a Baptist it's odd we had the same taste in Gospel Music LOL. She literally spent nearly her entire adult life as the family care giver to one person or another. It was her gift and her calling.
Her Brother {my uncle} and my dad full brother was a defrocked Baptist Deacon. Why? Oh this was a real Gem of judgemental legalism. He was a retired Navy Commander in his late 70's. His wife had passed and he had some serious medical issues. So his wife's cousins who were brother and sister moved in shortly after her death to care for him. The church who had taken his money, his labor, and even used his home for visiting preachers to stay suddenly declared him to be living in sin with an unmarried woman. Never mind the fact no one in that church offered to care for him or help him.
If a person wants to look for wrongs in churches most have them as they are imperfect. Now if churches were perfect them most certainly they would not need a savior.
I see good in most churches except a few who have made efforts to persecute Christians, stop public worship such as prayer, or deny Jesus Christ Divinity. One is United Church of Christ the other is Universal Unitarian Church which flat out rejects Christ as the son of GOD and savior.
This one is going to really get things heated but one of my cousin's two sons spent I think it wss two years in required missionary work. They could not contact their mom or dad during that time. Oh he was raised Baptist and changed churches when he married.
My family doesn't fight over who goes to what church or which church is right. Over the years we've all talked at various times and realize we all serve the same Lord and savior. We had too many others in the family whom all of us were trying to get them to come to Christ and focused our efforts on and it was a joint effort. No one cared which church they joined. We cared if they accepted Christ as Lord and savior.
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