Posted on 09/04/2013 8:05:22 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Some atheists say that if God exists, He should show Himself to everyone so they can believe in Him and not go to Hell. Should a good God do this?
I've heard atheists say that the best thing God could do would be to reveal Himself openly so that everyone could believe in Him, do what He wants, and not go to Hell. Since God does not do this, we know that either He does not exist or He is not good.
When this comes up with your atheist friends, try exploring the question of what would happen if God were to unequivocally prove His existence to an atheist. What would come of this? Would God's sudden appearance change the atheist's heart such that he would desire to devote himself to God?
Atheists aren't idiots. An open display of powerful glory by the God of the universe would likely drive former atheists to serve Him out of fear, but what would this accomplish from God's perspective? God doesn't desire eternal slaves—i.e., those who work to fulfill His requirements out of a desire to escape punishment or to gain something they want. As God reminds the Israelites throughout the Old Testament, it's not the acts of worship He's after, but the hearts of children who adore their Father and want to be with Him.
I submit to you this illustration from The Gulag Archipelago, a book about the communist, totalitarian Soviet Union in the first half of the 20th century. This is the kind of scenario God has no interest in creating:
At the conclusion of the conference, a tribute to Comrade Stalin was called for. Of course, everyone stood up (just as everyone had leaped to his feet during the conference at every mention of his name). The small hall echoed with "stormy applause, rising to an ovation." For three minutes, four minutes, five minutes.... But palms were getting sore and raised arms were already aching. And the older people were panting from exhaustion. It was becoming insufferably silly.... However, who would dare be the first to stop? The secretary of the District Party Committee could have done it.... But he was a newcomer. He had taken the place of a man who'd been arrested. He was afraid!....
The director of the local paper factory, an independent and strong-minded man, stood with the presidium. Aware of all the falsity and all the impossibility of the situation, he still kept on applauding! Nine minutes! Ten! In anguish he watched the secretary of the District Party Committee, but the latter dared not stop. Insanity! To the last man! With make-believe enthusiasm on their faces, looking at each other with faint hope, the district leaders were just going to go on and on applauding till they fell where they stood....
Stalin had made himself known to his people in all his power, and this was the result—forced worship given to avoid punishment. Yes, the standing ovation occurred, but it was not done out of love—it was not truthful. And for the atheist who sees God as a Stalinesque dictator, the result would be the same. This kind of "worship" does not please God; in fact, the hypocrisy of it angers Him.
A person who faults God for not openly showing His power in order to ensure that atheists will have the chance to do what they need to do to avoid Hell has missed the very purpose of God's revelation of Himself. We exist to "glorify God and enjoy Him forever," not to grudgingly follow His orders. How would cowing the atheist into submission by His presence further this goal for the atheist? The atheist has misdiagnosed his situation: uncertainty about God's existence is not his main problem, so certainty would not solve his problem. God is available with evidence enough to give confidence and trust to those whose hearts have been changed to desire Him. But if one hates the idea of the biblical God even in theory, one would be unlikely to love Him if He suddenly appeared in person.
The major difference between atheists and Christians is not that Christians believe God exists, but that they love Him for who He is and delight in pleasing Him, worshiping Him, and being with Him. This is why it's a good idea to ask the atheist who blames God's lack of appearance for his unbelief, "If I were to prove without a doubt that God exists, would you then love Him?” This question gets to the heart of the real issue for the atheist.
Theres more proof of Jesus then there is of Plato, yet Atheists have no problem believing in Plato.
He will. We all face Him sooner or later, believe that or not...
God can do whatever He pleases. We do not dictate to Him, He dictates to us (He has even given us His written Word). As Paul wrote:
Romans 9:20-21 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
And as Isaiah said:
Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? ...
The evidence of God, the Creator, is plain to everyone. There are people that will the deny the evidence until it is too late (i.e., at the Judgement).
Romans 1:20-22 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,...
The God deniers aren't looking for evidence, they are justifying their denials.
The basis for God's existence is as the Perfect Being, meaning, he has no needs, as opposed to Man where his needs require fulfillment albeit, different sorts of needs, physical as opposed to spiritual, hunger, thirst, etc in order to survive.
So,the premise regarding this thread is that having needs that require fulfillment renders you a mere mortal, where as not having any needs, whether it is food, air, other requirements of sustenance in order to exist, would make you immortal.
God's "Needs" are not physical but it is obvious from everything known about God, His "Needs" to have you have faith in Him, His needs to pray to Him, praise Him ,love Him, worship Him, are needs in which Man must fulfill in order to achieve approval in God's eyes.
Now, in the event Man as individual fails to fulfill that which God has commanded, demanded in response as declared to be God's "Needs", God's response is one of anger, of revenge as stated throughout the Bible. This phenomena of God getting angry, seeking revenge, has giving rise to the concept of Anthropomorphism.
Anthropomorphism, or personification, is attribution of human form or other characteristics to anything other than a human being. Examples include depicting deities with human form and ascribing human emotions or motives to forces of nature, such as hurricanes or earthquakes.
Wikipedia:Anthropomorphism has ancient roots as a literary device in storytelling, and also in art. Most cultures have traditional fables with anthropomorphised animals, which can stand or talk like humans, as characters.
One of the definitions for 'anger' is one defined as having lost control of your emotions, common sense.Exacting revenge is one result of becoming angry, losing control. Anger, Revenge is a decidedly human weakness.
To describe God's ' anger' in anthropomorphic terms is an oxymoron of the highest order. God being the Perfect Being can not conceivably lose control of his thoughts, his Very Being and to have any just such circumstance belies the existence of God as being the Perfect Being and such would deny the very rationale that is the basis for God.
There are very many examples of just such contradictions in the way God is defined, the way God is known to exist through the mind of Man.
God's apparent lack of appearance or any modicum of proof that He exists explained as His need to test your faith in Him, his requirement as ultimate proof of your belief in Him, is God's ultimate need that which Man can fulfill only by the affirmation of faith in Him. But to deny that what He seeks in Man would render him as an imperfect being, as such would render any belief in God as a non-entity.
RE: Throughout the New Testament God is slaughtering and Smoteing non-believers.
I assume that when you use the word — slaughter, you are referring to mass executions.
Where in the New Testament is it recorded?
Would it not have been an eye opener to Pontius Pilate had Jesus appeared to him after His Resurrection?
RE: Assuming God wanted to “reveal Himself” to atheists, I wonder what method of “revelation” would be sufficient to eliminate their doubts? And how often?
See Post #10 above for one instance...
RE: Would it not have been an eye opener to Pontius Pilate had Jesus appeared to him after His Resurrection?
Well why wasn’t he even curious enough to investigate the empty tomb when stories began to spread in Jerusalem and the soldiers he ordered to guard it left their post?
If I recall, didn’t Matthew write that the streets of Jerusalem were fully of freshly-arisen dead saints after the death of Jesus? Wouldn’t that have been eye-opening enough?
“Then what’s with the Heaven & Hell thingy?”
Your mocking tone aside, a Christian’s perspective:
It’s not a “thingy”. It is a “spiritual state”.
Heaven-state of being eternally in the presence of God (Life)
Hell-state of being eternally separated from God (Death)
God is both pro-choice and pro-life at the same time. It’s His will that you choose life and it is His will that it be your choice.
At face value, your question is more of a “why” question..why would God decide to set up the situation where his created beings (humans)would have to make such a choice, a choice that carries with it eternal consequences?
A short answer is because His design called for beings to have free will. Free to believe Him, free to not believe Him, free to be with Him for eternity, free to be eternally separated from Him, free to believe he doesn’t exist,free to believe He exists and is who He says He is,free to call yourself a “free thinker”, free to try to convince others that God is a myth, free to call yourself a believer and to share your beliefs with others.
In summary, it’s all about freedom, but with a twist. With each and every choice we freely make, there is a potential consequence and what we choose to believe is no exception.
You are free to believe it or not.
Romans 1:20
Book(s), chapter(s) and verse(s), please.
Well, the Flood comes to mind, though it’s technically not a true slaughtering or smote...
Could this not have been a case of a series of private apparitions that were later recounted by the viewers to Matthew when he wrote his Gospel, events of which Pilate was unaware of?
What's wrong with them that they chose to burn forever?
Start with Numbers 31, Deuteronomy 2 and the whole book of Joshua
You said NEW TESTAMENT
Throughout the New Testament God is slaughtering and Smoteing non-believers."
Actually, these are very good points. And, assuming that you meant the OT, you are absolutely correct. The author of the article assumes that God is like a really nice man who is trying His darndest to present a persona valuable, kind enough to mankind to persuade them to like Him. Kind of like the Most Interesting Man in the World (he once parallel parked a train). This is not the case.
"Then what's with the Heaven & Hell thingy?"
But, you are correct...this is not the God described in the Bible. The author's God might make a good conversation piece, but the God described in the Bible actually hates a lot of men He formed for destruction (Rom. 9). They are held captive by agents He formed (IITim 2), they cannot see because He prevents them from seeing (II Thess.2), and they ultimately will be destroyed forever (everywhere).
"What Bible is this author reading? ."
Right. Anyone who believes reality is happening so men will have a "chance" to love Him voluntarily isn't reading the text. God is doing something quite different than this. Reality and the text are far more severe. Apparently, God is rescuing some from themselves with means that only He can control (I Pet. 1). He is adopting some, because He decided to before all this started (Eph. 1). To these people, He has made Himself known by infusing in them a perception not available to the rest of the world (Eph. 2).
Athiests are athiests because they cannot help it. He has crowded them out, intentionally, and will save them for a destruction that will be utter and permanent. And, He is not apologizing. For those whose citizenship has been transferred to the heavenly city, in a kingdom that cannot be shaken, lips which cannot but speak gratitude lift Him up in praise.
As God reminds the Israelites throughout the Old Testament, it's not the acts of worship He's after, but the hearts of children who adore their Father and want to be with Him.
What Bible is this author reading? Throughout the Old Testament God is slaughtering and Smoteing non-believers.
RE: eeerrrr no I currently don’t believe in Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Bigfoot, The Loch Ness Monster, Unicorns, etc. If they revealed themselves, I would then believe them, not out of fear but because they would then be true.
There is a HUGE difference between things like dark Matter, energy, BigFoot, Lochness Monsters and Unicorns and God.
God is the CREATOR, the others (if some exist) are CREATURES.
Just curious:
1) In what manner would you prefer that God reveal Himself to you?
2) God commands that He be worshiped and yes, FEARED ( as in revered). If He revealed Himself to you in the manner you demand in order that you will believe, would you then bow down and worship and fear (in the Biblical sense ) Him?
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