Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance
Posted on 08/27/2013 11:53:37 AM PDT by NYer
Megachurch. Two young ladies. Both had left the Catholic Church. Both were now attending “megachurches.” We had a good chat together. I wanted to understand their reasons for why they left the Catholic Church for a megachurch.
Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance
I was at the bank and somehow I got into a spiritual conversation with two Hispanic executives that worked there.
When I asked why they exchanged the Catholic Church for the megachurch, they gave me a number of reasons:
Although these two ladies didn’t articulate it explicitly to me, I could tell that they were very proud of their new churches. I could also discern in them a surprise that I am so “spiritual” and yet I am very excited about being Catholic. They assumed the “with it” people were leaving Catholicism for the bigger and better and deal.
I asked them what they miss about being Catholic. They replied with two answers:
I asked both about the Eucharist: “Don’t you miss the Eucharist?”
This question didn’t phase them one bit. “Oh we still have communion. They pass out little crackers and cups of juice. I like this better because I thought drinking from one big cup is icky. Spreads germs.”
“But in the Catholic Church,” I replied, “we believe that the Eucharist is the real Body and Blood of Jesus?”
I may as well have said, “Don’t you know that there are Martians in my back pocket.” She was unaware that the Catholic Church taught this. No idea.
This, my brothers and sisters, is the crux of the problem. These girls were raised as Catholics, but did not know about the Eucharist. They did not know that the Eucharist is God. They did not understand the Holy Eucharist is the center of the Catholic tradition.
So when they compare our ho-hum Catholic music and pedestrian sermons to snazzy well produced musical productions and highly polished bulleted sermons from handsome professional speakers…where are they going to go?
If they had believed that the Holy Eucharist is truly the Lord Jesus Christ, then they would have stayed. This is the task of the New Evangelization if there is going to be one. Can we communicate the mystery of Eucharist. If we fail in that, everyone is leaving the building.
Godspeed,
Taylor
PS: I don’t mean to suggest that having the Holy Eucharist is an excuse for bad music, bad vestments, bad architecture, and bad sermons. The Eucharist is like a precious diamond. It deserves a platinum setting…not a plastic setting. We can’t say, “Well, we have the Eucharist – so you’re forced to stay and have a miserable experience every Sunday.” We can’t keep the sacraments hostage to mediocracy.
PPS: With 1 billion strong, the Catholic Church is the real megachurch!
Pope Francis at Rio de Janeiro
3 million people
If we are criticised for having Christmas trees, you can’t escape criticism for wedding bands.
Wedding bands are not condemned in the scriptures...
Long robes, calling priests father, bowing down to popes and erecting Christmas trees are all condemned in the scriptures...
Just what image is he bowing down to?
Does God discourage prayer for others?
You seem to think that asking for mercy for myself and others is somehow wrong.
Or do you not see that there is a “me” in “us”?
If you have problems with calling Mary *mother of Jesus*, take it up with the Holy Spirit who breathed it out in His inspired Scripture.
Pagan is pagan. You bring a pagan thing into your church and ask for God to bless it, then you wear it on your finger every day.
That’s pagan.
Iscool: “Not just that...Are you guys serving Mary???”
mm: When they pray prayers like this.... I’d say so....
And here is a pope’s idolatrous prayer to her, treating her as if she were God Himself.....
Prayer of Pope Pius XII
In Honor of the Immaculate Conception
http://catholicism.about.com/od/tothevirginmary/qt/Honor_Immacula.htm
Prayer of Pope Pius XII
Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.
Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.
O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!
O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.
Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen.
************************************************************
A link to a page called “Mary is Necessary”
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/mary18b.htm
Listen, all you who desire the Kingdom of God! Honor and serve the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, and you will find life and eternal salvation!
St. Bonaventure
Whoever honors, loves, serves, and invokes Mary with humility and confidence will ascend to Paradise.
St. John Eudes
If you persevere until death in true devotion to Mary, you salvation is certain.
St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori
And there are more.....
Mary is the mother of Jesus. How about you acknowledge her role in salvation history by calling Mary the Mother of God.
See how Catholics proclaim we are saved:
By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)
By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)
By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)
By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)
By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)
By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)
By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)
By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)
By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)
By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)
By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)
By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)
By our words (Matt 12:37)
By enduring to the end (Matt.24:13)
A video about the Virgin Mary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA
I am at a lost how to explain the very, very small subset of people on FR who don't get this; who misinterpret all of the common forms of religious veneration found in the Bible, as adoration.
There isn't any Christian veneration in the Bible to anyone other than God...So we don't misinterpret anything...And I'd say we don't get what you say because apparently your religion teaches otherwise...
"If the Son is a King," says an ancient writer, "the Mother who begot him is rightly and truly considered a Queen and Sovereign". "No sooner had Mary," says St. Bernadine of Sienna, "consented to be Mother of the Eternal Word, than she merited by this consent to be made Queen of the world and of all creatures." "Since the flesh of Mary," remarks the Abbot Arnold of Chartres, "was not different from that of Jesus, how can the royal dignity of the Son be denied to the Mother? Hence we must consider the glory of the Son, not only as being common to, but as one with, that of His mother."
Although a queen, Mary, is not a queen of justice, intent on the punishment of the wicked, but a queen of mercy, intent only on commiserating and pardoning sinners. And this is the reason why the Church requires that we should expressly call her "the Queen of Mercy." Commenting on the words of David: "These two things have I heard, that power belongs to God, and mercy to You, O Lord," - the Medieval author John Gerson writes: "The kingdom of God consists in power and mercy; reserving the power to Himself, He, in some way, yielded the emperor of mercy to His Mother." This is confirmed by St. Thomas, in his Preface to the Canonical Epistles, saying, "that when the Blessed Virgin conceived the Eternal Word in her womb, and brought Him forth, she obtained half the kingdom of God; so that she is Queen of Mercy, as Jesus Christ is King of Justice."
And if Jesus is the King of the universe, Mary is also its Queen. "And as Queen," says the Abbot Rupert, "she possesses, by right, the whole kingdom of her Son." St. Bernadine of Sienna concludes that "as many creatures as there are who serve God, so many there are who serve Mary: for as angels and men, and all things that are in heaven and on earth are subject to the empire of God, so are they also under the dominion of Mary." The Abbot Guarricus, addressing himself to the Divine Mother on this subject, says:
If Mary is Divine, she requires worship...
Silly Abraham!
If you mean "Obeying her commands," the only direct command I know of is, with reference to her divine Son, "Do whatever He tells you."
Only in that sense, yes.
See how Catholics proclaim we are saved:
And see Jesus' reply to those who asked: "What MUST we do..."
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Christ does NOT act. He made HIMSELF ONE sacrifice for ALL on The Cross - It IS Finished. Only satan does not want IT finished because he would still have power - and he doesn't - only the power you give him. So catholics are giving him power whether they are smart enough to know it or not. Get over it - or reap what you are sowing - and that is NOT BELIEVING JESUS that It is Finished. Being deliberately disobedient to the WORDS of JESUS is honoring satan. You can't serve two masters. Either Good/LIFE or Evil/DEATH, catholics made their choice to serve evil.
It’s a beautiful teaching. And true.
It's a demonic teaching and it's only true to those who follow demonic teachings.
the Catholic Mass resembles the eternal heavenly worship.
More deception from The DECEIVER for those who can be easily deceived because they do not know TRUTH Who is JESUS The Word. When destruction comes, catholics have no one to blame but themselves and they are as guilty as THE DECEIVER.
I hope that you join us some day.
No way, Jose. I left that counterfeit church, a worldly organization, in the dust.
As for me and my house, we will serve The Lord. Amen!
See what the GENTILES were told to do:
Acts 15
The Council at Jerusalem
1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14 Simon[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16 “‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’[b]—
18 things known from long ago.[c]19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers
22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. 23 With them they sent the following letter:The apostles and elders, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Greetings.
24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Farewell.
30 So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31 The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. 32 Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the believers. 33 After spending some time there, they were sent off by the believers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them. [34] [d] 35 But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord.
Disagreement Between Paul and Barnabas
36 Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us go back and visit the believers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing.” 37 Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, 38 but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work. 39 They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus, 40 but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the believers to the grace of the Lord. 41 He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.
She is not divine. She is the mother of a person who is divine.
I think you are misunderstanding what “Divine Mother” means, just like many misunderstand what is meant by “Mother of God.”
Exactly. Exactly! And that's what makes it so striking--- no, stunning, shocking --- when Jesus says, "Eat my body, drink my blood." Not just once, but at least half a dozen times. And when people start to object, He doubles down on it. (Ref: John 6, toward the end of all three Synoptics, and Corinthians).
The Jews knew very well that this is forbidden in Mosaic law, and that is why so many of them took offense and stopped following Him. Why? Because they didn't care for His metaphors? No, but because they couldn't tolerate the shocking realism of what He was saying. What a gripping way to proclaim that His Blood, and His alone, is to be drunk: for that is His very life, and ours.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him... Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? ... From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."
Exactly a point that gets lost in these debates. I don't know why others don't see it.
Some claim in John 6:63 Jesus claimed exactly that: that He was only speaking in metaphor and not in a literal sense. But these same people seem to forget that it was AFTER Jesus (supposedly) "explained Himself" in John 6:63, that virtually all His followers left him!
Why? Was it so difficult to accept He was teaching in a metaphor? Were the people back then somehow different than us? Were they stupid and couldn't grasp the concept of a metaphor?
WHY would a group of people who just before wanted to crown Him king suddenly leave Him because He started speaking in metaphors? HE TAUGHT BEFORE IN PARABLES AND NO ONE LEFT HIM THEN!
It makes ZERO sense, to try to claim a metaphor would be so offensive. Such a claim only makes sense to those who want or NEED to believe that "explaination". It makes ZERO sense otherwise.
In short:
Image yes, idol no.
Honor yes, adoration no.
Bowing1 has a different sense than bowing2 and bowing3. And there are certainly more senses than 3.
That is something I think we all know. Even as 21st century Americans we know there is the stage-bow by actors and performers (at the curtain call) and,in martial arts, bows used to begin and end practice, sparring bouts and competitions.
Hand-kissing of women by men, in formal settings, includes a bow --- I know that if it were done to me, it would not be adoration, although there's a courtly WWII vet at church who always opens the church door and bows when he sees me coming: don't tell my husband, but maybe he has a crush? :o)
There are more categories of bowing on Europe, and even more in the orient. In the England, lawyers and clerks bow to the judge when entering or leaving a law court. I think they also bow to the Speaker of the House of Commons
I'm not getting encyclopedic here. I'm just showing that everbody, actually knows that bowing1 has a different sense than bowing2, and cultures with a richer repertoire of honor and courtesy, both human and divine, may have many more bows, with a certain recognized gradation and a great deal depending on context.
Grant me that?
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