Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
|
| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
>> “Don’t forget to pray to Mary to save you from Jesus! Cuz, let me tell ya, you NEED saving from Jesus!” <<
.
AMEN!
As do any who hold a belief that a baked cookie can offer eternal life, rather than belief on the Son of Yehova.
>> “Ethnic Jew, Catholic by religion.” <<
.
True that “catholic” is a “religion,” and not a following of Yeshua.
Yeshua’s disciples called the path the took in following and obeying Yeshua “The Way,” and it bore no resemblence to the RCC.
Jesus set up the way for us to go DIRECTLY to the Father. And HE is our great High Priest.
Hebrews 4:14-16 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
The curtain in the Temple was torn in two from the top down when Jesus died. There is no barrier to anyone who wants direct access to the Father any more.
What sophistry. God back and read my response As has been abundantly evidenced, you have no valid argument that would explain why they did not pray to angels for help and deliverance. Quit wasting my time with more vain attempts. Bye Again.
“In the first verse we see foreknowledge of Christ, which shows His divine nature. God, generally, foreknows our feats and our sins before we know of them, and he leads His saints through life, first giving them faith and from that leading them to good works of faith, known collectively as discipleship, — that we see from the second verse. Here for example, some of His disciples are proven to believe in the Holy Eucharist and they stay with Christ; others are proven to be without Catholic faith and fall off (next verse just outside of your scope).”
The mention of the “belief in the Holy Eucharist” is quite obnoxious and short sighted, since it puts faith in a sacrament and not faith in Jesus Christ. The object of faith here is not a sacrament of Christ, but Christ Himself is to be believed on. As Augustine says, commenting on this chapter:
“They said therefore unto Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” For He had said to them, “Labor not for the meat which perishes, but for that which endures unto eternal life.” What shall we do? they ask; by observing what, shall we be able to fulfill this precept? Jesus answered and said unto them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” This is then to eat the meat, not that which perishes, but that which endures unto eternal life. To what purpose do you make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and you have eaten already.” (Augustine, Tractate 25)
So the object here is faith in Christ Himself, who is eaten when believed on, and not eaten when carnally gnawed on with the mouth.
Secondly, the “feats and sins” mentioned here is belief and unbelief, or rather belief and betrayal, for those who walked away, and Judas who stayed though Christ calls Him a “devil.” It is not merely foreknowledge of whether or not they would have faith, or who would cooperate with God to have faith (as otherwise it would be given to all). It is foreknowledge of what God Himself would do in His elect, and what he would not do to others.
“There are some of you that believe not... Therefore said I unto you, no man can come unto me unless it is given to Him by the Father.”
Their unbelief is explained by the fact that it was not given to them to believe, as Augustine concludes:
“But after He spoke, and distinguished those that believe from those that believe not, He clearly showed the cause why they believed not. “Therefore I said unto you,” says He, “that no man can come unto me except it were given to him of my Father.” Hence to believe is also given to us; for certainly to believe is something. And if it is something great, rejoice that you have believed, yet be not lifted up; for “What do you have that you did not receive?” 1 Corinthians 4:7” (Augustine, Tractate 27)
And again, “Noble excellence of grace! No man comes unless drawn. There is whom He draws, and there is whom He draws not; why He draws one and draws not another, do not desire to judge, if you desire not to err.” (Augustine, Tractate 26).
And elsewhere, though commenting on a different chapter, “And assuredly, if this were said because God foreknew that they would believe, not because He Himself would make them believers, the Son is speaking against such a foreknowledge as that when He says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you;” (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Ch. 34)
Thus believers are made believers by the power of God, and those who do not believe, believe not because it was not given to them to believe.
Hence the Catholic claim is refuted wherein they say:
“God foresees the free activity of a man precisely as that individual is willing to shape it.” (Predestination. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.)
Thus the Papists make of verses like these the foreknowledge of God in cooperating with a man who would be willing to believe, rather than, as Augustine says, God foreknowing what He himself would do.
Oh?
"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon'
Sorry; but once again you CLAIM something is PROVEN when it is not.
Compared to the COMMITTEE approach to what it means: the Magisterium.
Now the MORMONs, OTOH, have unanimous votes when deciding whether the Living Prophet® has heard from GOD or not.
Do some research into the early Church, and see what it has in common with Mormonism. the present church.
If by “committee” you means synod or council or, more broadly, Holy Tradition, but the papacy represents a monarchical approach does it not? And by that I mean with the pope, like the king in the case of Germanic law, is the single person who proclaims what is true since “time immemorial” rather than revealing new law. Luther took on that role for himself. But he was able to get away with this only because the Emperor, in the person of Charles V, was also defied by the Elector Frederick.
Yes. I know. "Though Him all things were made". So He also made His own mother.
I think metmom explained it best in the post right above yours: "There is no barrier to anyone who wants direct access to the Father any more", but before Christ there was a barrier: that barrier was Levitical priesthood. The Heaven was closed to the Jews a a rule, occasional prophet notwithstanding.
That is what the text of John 6 says and I stick with the text: "Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you". Incidentally, if you ever wonder why a Catholic like me puts zero stock in Protestant sophistries, that is the reason: an illiterate old woman somewhere up in the Andes knows more about Christ than you do from Luther on with all your book knowledge, for you have no conversation with the saints, and no Eucharist. You "walked no more with Him".
the Catholic claim is refuted
I don't see any contradiction between St. Augustine quotes and the Encyclopedia quote, let alone "refutation". Besides, there is a certain spectrum of thought between say, Molinism and Thomism on that, within the Catholic doctrine.
>> “Yes. I know. “Though Him all things were made”. So He also made His own mother.” <<
.
But what you’re not grasping is the essential truth:
Mary was the mother of his Earthly body, but not of any part of his Godhood. His Earthly body was not God, and had to die and be resurrected incorruptible to accompany his spirit to the realm of the Father, just as our bodies do.
What I explained is that we have DIRECT access to the Father, to the throne.
I did not say that to imply that it allowed us access to saints and angels. It did not.
And do not imply again that I agree with you in any way, shape, or form with praying to anyone but God.
Praying to anyone but God and contacting the dead is clearly prohibited in Scripture. It is spiritism and idolatry and as such condemned by God.
They have to justify correcting the Holy Spirit inspired, God breathed word of God somehow.
Since the term *mother of God* is not found anywhere in Scripture, but the Holy Spirit saw fit to refer to her correctly as the *mother of Jesus*, they have no choice but to say God was wrong if they want to support their religion.
No, obviously the entire Divine Person, Who "grew, and waxed strong, full of wisdom" and Who "advanced in wisdom, and age, and grace with God and men."
Women do not give birth to bodies but to persons, genius.
No, you did not but the implication is there. The Jews could not pray to anyone but God because the veil was their preventing them.
annalex: No, obviously the entire Divine Person, Who "grew, and waxed strong, full of wisdom" and Who "advanced in wisdom, and age, and grace with God and men."
Women do not give birth to bodies but to persons, genius.
Well, there you have it e-s. She is the mother of Jesus's divine nature. And just to make sure we get the message, we are reminded that women give birth to persons.
Hence, Mary is the mother of the Godhead.
And Catholics claim they don't believe Mary was a god, that they don't deify her, that they believe God is eternal.
And they prove that they are deluded probably beyond hope of rescue by the Holy Spirit.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.