Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
Well, veneration of saints is more than calling them blessed. However, while they cannot deny either component of veneration of saints: intercessory prayer, abundant and angelic quality of the saint's afterlife, the fact that saints do pray and God hears them, the fact that they make witness to us form heaven, -- they deny the synthesis of it that emerged in 2-3 c. This shows that the leadership of the Holy Spirit has left them.
Indeed there are: inspired by the Holy Ghost, the mother Church preserved the memory of her saints and taught us how to venerate them to God's glory.
However, you are correct to an extent: the early Christians began to venerate the saints on their own, and the Church followed. Selection of canonized saints, and the choice to venerate them is with the People of God, the Royal Catholic Nation.
She does; how does it make her "godlike"? Do you understand what Purgatory is?
Yes, absolutely. There is no barrier between those dead in Christ and those living on faith; Christ has abolished it. "O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?" That is very much the point of the article.
Lord Jesus fix the soul of the boy and put the light of Holy Faith in him and draw him to Thyself and stay with him forever. Bless his father and count his heroic works onto his salvation as well.
In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, in the company of saints in heaven we pray, amen.
55 posted on Saturday, August 24, 2013 9:24:02 PM by annalex (fear them not)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3058197/posts?page=55#55
I failed to ping you to a comment that was part of your conversation...my apologies! Please see my only other comment in this thread
There are two views; synergism and monergism. It's all about sovereignty. Synergism believes that God and man must work together to bring about salvation. Catholics and synergistic Protestants believe this. Synergism is a continuum with Catholicism just about at the end of this continuum. The more a Protestant believes that they must do something (e.g. make a choice, do good things, etc), the closer they align with our Catholic friends which is at the end of this synergistic spectrum. The less they believe they need to do (believe only), the closer to the monergistic view they align themselves.
Monergism is completely separate view. It believes that God alone saves us. There is no continuum for the monergistic view. There is only disagreement in points of doctrinal interpretation (such as baptism). Why God chooses us we don't know. All we know is that we are chosen because we are weak. This is God's sovereign will at work to carry out His work. We are only His tools. Why we are chosen to share His light into this world and partner with His Spirit to make disciples is a mystery. Early church fathers like Augustine and Cyprian were monergists. So are great Protestants like Matthew Henry, Arthur Pink, John Gill, John Piper, John McArthur, etc.
As a monergist I'm happy to give God all glory for my salvation. I am also proud to declare God sovereign over all things and controls all things (yes, controls). I see nothing ugly about it. Personally, the thought of God not being sovereign over something never entered my mind.
But I thought He HAD no family but MARY!!!
We’ve heard NOTHING about Joseph in the latter years and ALL of Catholicism says that Jesus was an Only Child.
Was Elizabeth and her son John there?
That’s the only ‘family’ that I know of...
More bad logic...
You could be a MORMON; but you're a Catholic.
They BOTH claim that "...there is NO salvation outside the Church..."
In WHAT?
A séance with a DEAD guy?
Well; there goes the Top Down Structure!
And there is the other type of Calvinism: the Watterson kind.
The little boy with a BIG imagianation that conjures up all KINDS of things from bits and pieces - Calvinosaurus comes to mind.
Calvinosaurusization of the Scriptures will produce TONS of Catholic 'belief' and ritual.
Actually, it is possible daily, for instance for devout spiritual reading from Sacred Scripture for at least one half an hour, if the RC also fulfils three conditions: 1) sacramental confession; 2) Eucharistic Communion; and 3) a prayer for the intention of the Holy Father on the same day the work is performed.. And that all attachment to sin, even venial sin, be absent.
Other special offers include pious and devoutly receiving the Papal Blessing, even by radio or TV, when imparted to Rome and the World (reruns likely do not count).
Then you have partial indulgences, such as "A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful, who in a spirit of faith and mercy give of themselves or of their goods to serve their brothers in need."
Likely some RCs consider posting articles promoting Rome on FR fulfills this condition. (http://www.the-pope.com/purg.html; http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/indulgw.php)
But which fosters institutionalized religion that is more form than substance.
A blasphemy which insults the Holy Spirit who inspired Scripture and made it the supreme standard for obedience and establishing truth claims, and who (again) cries "Abba Father" not "mama, mother" in the believers hearts, and only instructs us to address the Lord in prayer to Heaven, and provided about 100 prayers to God in Scripture but zero to anyone else in Heaven, but only examples pagans doing so, while exhorting believers to come boldly to the throne of God to meet with God directly. Etc.
Enough with the proud and unholy presumption of Rome who makes effectively herself her own law.
Lots of that out of context stuff going on with t
Another prayer where it shows that Catholics consider Jesus their judge and Mary will intercede for them....
http://anotherchristianblog.org/page/65/
“Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me; for, if thou protect me, dear Mother, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; not even from Jesus, my Judge Himself, because, by one prayer from thee, He will be appeased. But one thing I fear; that, in the hour of temptation, I may neglect to call on thee, and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me then the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace always to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.”
When two or three are gathered together doesn't mean they are praying TO each other.
In all this trying to support praying to saints, you have failed miserably to produce any Scriptural support for it.
The best you have been able to offer up is rationalizations and inferences. A weak argument as the very best.
From the Bible. I take it you do not believe that God came to live in Mary’s womb, or that before that he came to live in the Ark, in order to be amongst his people.
Mark also says nothing about the Virgin Birth. So are you limiting the Gospel to what Mark says?
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