Veneration of Mary in Luke 11:27-28

August 15, 2013 | Annalex

[annalex]

Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:

Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)

What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:

Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)

The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source

Note that there is no condemnation here, not even asking the woman to stop; the "yea rather" (μενουνγε) is not a negation. It is used other times in the New Testament without a hint of negation. In Philippians 3:8 "αλλα μενουνγε και ηγουμαι παντα ζημιαν ειναι", "Furthermore I count all things to be but loss" (Textus Receptus 1550/1894, Byzantine/Majority Text 2000 has here "αλλα μεν ουν και ηγουμαι…" which is the same word morphology spelled separately and colliding affirmative "γε" with the following "και"). Romans 9:20 "μενουνγε ω ανθρωπε συ τις ει ο ανταποκρινομενος τω θεω" and Romans 10:18 "μενουνγε εις πασαν την γην εξηλθεν ο φθογγος αυτων" use the word reinforcing the subsequent statement. Some translations obscure this linguistic fact: in King James for example, the same word is rendered correctly, "yea rather" in Luke 11:28, wholly incongruously, "nay but" in Romans 9:20, but in Romans 10:18 the translation is again correct, "Yes verily". NRSV has both correct and elegant translations for all three. (See The Holy Mother and the "ΜΕΝΟΥΝΓΕ")

Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.

[WVKayaker]

There are lots of Roman Catholic idolaters who try to find fault with Scripture. When confronted with the Truth revealed in His Word, the backlash comes in the form of personal attacks and name calling. They will try and change the theme of the thread to try to build up their group, without giving credence to anything which goes against their teachings of error. They would rather believe in their doctrines of man, than to listen to God's Word. We know better and say so.

I had a few posts removed from another thread because I don't bow to their throne. There is only one God, and one Jesus Christ, our only Mediator and author of our salvation! The Roman group has long been trying to lay claim a history, but the Spirit reveals the Truth!

The church is all of us believers, and Jesus is the only head. Mary is dead. The pope is a usurper. We can only be saved through faith!

For ever and ever, Amen!

[cuban leaf]

I’ve discovered, on these threads in FR, that when those such as annalex post these, at first glance, well researched and scholarly posts look intimidating until you actually read them. You then realize that they are usually using as their foundation some very basic and incorrect assumptions regarding scripture and the teachings of Christ.

It’s gotten to where I almost see them as “Where’s Waldo” pictures. But in this case it’s “can you spot, in this diatribe, the false assumption that causes this whole case to collapse?

It is ALWAYS there, and it is no harder than the waldo drawings. And just as the waldo drawings have a lot of “red striped things” in them to throw you off, these hope to hide the flaw and confuse the reader in the same way.

Though they are not prayers, they keep bringing to mind the warning in the old testament to not pray like the gentiles who think they will be heard for their many words.

[Sir Francis Dashwood]

The Golden Calf has grown up to be a hollow Bronze Bull.

[cuban leaf]

You could also ask why the Germans, or the French, or the Spanish, or the Chinese or Japanese (seein’ a pattern yet?) do NOT use the KJV.

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In all seriousness, I almost went there during that post. :-)

[cuban leaf]

I meant to include you in the post this links to.

[cuban leaf]

Every time I see a Crucifix I cringe and am reminded of the scripture about worshiping a graven image.

[cuban leaf]

Every time I see a Crucifix I cringe and am reminded of the scripture about worshiping a graven image.

And FWIW, my wife was raised Irish Catholic and her family is about as devout as you can get. Her sister is in her fifties and goes to mass every day.

And Muslims pray “religiously” every day and at specific times.

Christians are a bit freer than that. I’ve found that when you apply the teachings of Christ to a “specific foundation” of Ecclesiastes, you get a sense of why the Gospels are called “the Gospels”, because it is very good news indeed.

[cuban leaf]

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again [anōthen], he cannot see the kingdom of God. Anōthen Transliteration: anóthen Phonetic Spelling: (an'-o-then) Short Definition: from above, from the beginning, again [http://biblesuite.com/strongs/greek/509.htm] -------------------------------------------------- Or, as we would say in modern language, Fresh start, repent, become a new man. Turn from your old ways, etc. i.e. "born again".

[cuban leaf]

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again [anōthen], he cannot see the kingdom of God. Anōthen Transliteration: anóthen Phonetic Spelling: (an'-o-then) Short Definition: from above, from the beginning, again [http://biblesuite.com/strongs/greek/509.htm] -------------------------------------------------- Or, as we would say in modern language, Fresh start, repent, become a new man. Turn from your old ways, new perspective, etc. i.e. "born again". In fact, that is what Jesus teaches all over the place, as do His disciples. It is the strong theme of the new testament. Remember, it took the Apostles quite a while to "get it". Even Peter. At first they glommed on to Jesus like a beggar gloms onto a rich guy walking down the street. Hence the argument about which one of them would be greater in heaven. It's almost as though they first though it was like Amway. But Jesus was patient and brought his teaching to full fruition with them. You can see them change - being perfected - as you read the stories in the Gospels.

[cuban leaf]

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again [anōthen], he cannot see the kingdom of God. Anōthen Transliteration: anóthen Phonetic Spelling: (an'-o-then) Short Definition: from above, from the beginning, again [http://biblesuite.com/strongs/greek/509.htm] -------------------------------------------------- Or, as we would say in modern language, Fresh start, repent, become a new man. Turn from your old ways, new perspective, etc. i.e. "born again". In fact, that is what Jesus teaches all over the place, as do His disciples. It is the strong theme of the new testament. Remember, it took the Apostles quite a while to "get it". Even Peter. At first they glommed on to Jesus like a beggar gloms onto a rich guy walking down the street. Hence the argument about which one of them would be greater in heaven. It's almost as though they first though it was like Amway. But Jesus was patient and brought his teaching to full fruition with them. You can see them change - being perfected - as you read the stories in the Gospels.

[cuban leaf]

I see that the attack on Catholics continues on FR.

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I will “attack” ideas and words I disagree with through debate and discussion. I really try to avoid attacking people.

We are all flawed. Every one of us.

[cuban leaf]

I see that the attack on Catholics continues on FR.

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I will “attack” ideas and words I disagree with through debate and discussion. I really try to avoid attacking people.

We are all flawed. Every one of us.

That said, I’m only speaking about myself.

[cuban leaf]

I see that the attack on Catholics continues on FR.

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One last comment on that post:

I argue religion, Global Warming and a host of other issues on liberal sites. Trust me, you have seen no “real” attacks here. They are pin pricks. They are sparring. In some ways they are even iron sharpening iron.

But it is good to “attack” false teaching if you can back up your attacks.

On a side note, I HATE false teaching, but not people. I hate islam, but not muslims. I hate mormonism, but not mormons. In both cases, I see the deluded followers as the primary victims of the belief system, not the belief system itself. That being said, I will stop them at every opportunity when they attempt to distort the teachings of Jesus.

[Elsie]

I don’t know anything about it nor do I wish to. :)

This Nation came close to ELECTING a deceived MORMON to be the Leader of the Free World!

You'd BETTER learn something about the HERESY called Mormonism!

The Anyone But Obama crowd here went absolutely NUTS because we Christians Who Value Men's Souls More Than Citizenship would NOT bow down to Romney!

[Elsie]

HMMMmmm...

That didn’t look like the Sure Sign of the Nail to me!

[Elsie]

Wisdom of the Sages....

[Elsie]

Sounds like a very colorful and vibrant place to live.

Except the 1604/I-35 area at rush hour!

[Elsie]

Oops!

I erred in thinking you were talking about SanAntone!

[Elsie]

All that is available to me is lousy DSL...

Lousy?

How SOON we forget the joys of regular Dialup speeds.

I thought I'd died and gone to Heaven when I switched to DSL!

And then, when our forward thinking small regional telephone company made the BIG leap to put in Fiber Optic to every home: WOW²!

[Elsie]

If you hit the ABUSE button and tell them the problem, they will ELIMINATE, but not FIX, the link.

Just trim the ends of it and it'll work...

[img]http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/8605/wlt.JPG[/img] <--- bad

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/8605/wlt.JPG <--- good