Veneration of Mary in Luke 11:27-28

August 15, 2013 | Annalex

[annalex]

Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:

Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)

What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:

Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)

The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source

Note that there is no condemnation here, not even asking the woman to stop; the "yea rather" (μενουνγε) is not a negation. It is used other times in the New Testament without a hint of negation. In Philippians 3:8 "αλλα μενουνγε και ηγουμαι παντα ζημιαν ειναι", "Furthermore I count all things to be but loss" (Textus Receptus 1550/1894, Byzantine/Majority Text 2000 has here "αλλα μεν ουν και ηγουμαι…" which is the same word morphology spelled separately and colliding affirmative "γε" with the following "και"). Romans 9:20 "μενουνγε ω ανθρωπε συ τις ει ο ανταποκρινομενος τω θεω" and Romans 10:18 "μενουνγε εις πασαν την γην εξηλθεν ο φθογγος αυτων" use the word reinforcing the subsequent statement. Some translations obscure this linguistic fact: in King James for example, the same word is rendered correctly, "yea rather" in Luke 11:28, wholly incongruously, "nay but" in Romans 9:20, but in Romans 10:18 the translation is again correct, "Yes verily". NRSV has both correct and elegant translations for all three. (See The Holy Mother and the "ΜΕΝΟΥΝΓΕ")

Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.

[Iscool]

You could also ask why the Germans, or the French, or the Spanish, or the Chinese or Japanese (seein' a pattern yet?) do NOT use the KJV.

Now wait a minute...The KJV has been translated into more languages than any other and probably more than all others combined...

Point out the ORIGINAL contained the Apocrypha!

Heads will EXPLODE!!!

Mine didn't...I knew they stuck it in between the OT and NT because people thought that reading it was profitable but in no way inspired by God...Later editions removed it altogether...

On top of that, the KJV is responsible for bringing more sinners to Jesus Christ than all others combined...

Don't pick on that old bible...That bible is the bible of the Great Reformation...

[Elsie]

Did I detect Jonathan Winters in that clip at 0:48 - 0:52?

[Elsie]

Don't pick on that old bible...

I didn't.

I 'picked on' those who have made an IDOL out of it.

[Elsie]

On top of that, the KJV is responsible for bringing more sinners to Jesus Christ than all others combined...

Now the Catholics will jump in and say it's only been around 400 years...

[jodyel]

By golly, I think you did! How ‘bout that?!

[jodyel]

I don’t know anything about it nor do I wish to. :)

[johngrace]

Lol!!! That’s funny I am an Old Comedy fan. Here is for you from the big W ...........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iisMlRGigIE

[jodyel]

You are a hoot!

[img]http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/8605/wlt.JPG[/img]

I have this shirt and get stopped every time I wear it...by passing folks, not the police. ;)

[jodyel]

Sounds like a very colorful and vibrant place to live.

I am in the Dallas area and the neighborhood I live in is quite safe...out in the country. Plus I know the parts of Dallas I should avoid to stay safe.

But I do like to hit the Walmart in the middle of the night to grocery shop so I can avoid the crowds and long check out lines. I was in there till about midnight last night but am usually in there much later. Do they even have 24-hour shopping there?

I am a night person but I bet there is not much open at night except the bars and I’ve no interest in those. How is the Internet connection? All that is available to me is lousy DSL...I can’t even get cable or FIOs or U-verse. And I have a 150GB data cap. I met a girl who also lives in the Philippines thru my TV site but we have never talked much about living there. I will have to see what she says.

All in all, it sounds pretty good. I like the story about your drunk guy and those scooters in the pic look real economical. Are they for hire or is that what they drive there?

Thanks for sharing!

[jodyel]

My attempt at posting the image did not work.

Can mods fix it please?

Thanks,
jodyel

[boatbums]

It doesn’t seem to be happening on mine. I wish it would, ‘cuz I can’t seem to stop typing “teh” instead of “the”. Teh is “kitteh spelling”. ;o)

[WVKayaker]

you can't appeal to the mods to repost for you. You can ask them to remove the post by hitting the abuse button and telling them why, and then repost after going back and studying the HTML sandbox.

But, posting a picture is quite easy. Inside the < >, you type

img src= "url here between the quote marks"

At least, that is the way that I normally make them appear! It's just like magic! I usually open another window and search for some graphic or GIF, click on it to copy its location, and then paste it in between the quote marks. Good luck!

[WVKayaker]

[boatbums]

Moreover, the doctrine presupposes the validity of Luther's canon of Scripture, and his authority to determine the canon of Scripture. Was Luther infallible? Protestants need to stand back, and try to read Scripture objectively, without presupposing Luther's doctrinal tradition. Reading Scripture objectively is difficult for everyone, since we all approach Scripture with presuppositions. Regardless, doing so will expose the incoherence of Luther's central doctrine.

You Catholics - those who continue to post falsehoods about "Luther's canon" - need to be the ones to stand back and try to see EVERYTHING objectively for a change. How many times do you have to be corrected about this??? And, once and for all, PLEASE try to understand that sola Scriptura doesn't mean ONLY the Bible can be used to teach the Christian faith. The rule of faith for Christians MUST be warranted by Scripture - placed there BY God specifically so we can know what we need to know for our salvation, edification, exhortation and correction - but NOBODY is saying or has said that ONLY the Bible can be used to do that. That would be SOLO Scriptura.

Additionally, I would like for you Catholics to admit WHY you really object to the idea of sola Scriptura (both the false one and the actual one). I think it is because your church has proclaimed dogmas that are mandatory for all to believe that they KNOW have no Scriptural support and/or contradict Scripture in some way. This is their way to usurp the authority of God's word for their OWN authority over God's word. And that ain't gonna happen - not to sincere Christians and definitely not to God.

[boatbums]

It is a faithful saying: and these things I will have thee affirm constantly: that they, who believe in God, may be careful to excel in good works. (Titus, the part you pretended was not there).

What makes you think I pretended or ignored that part? You complain about too much text to read and then complain that there's not enough??? I don't deny we should endeavor to excel in good works. I just deny the false and corrupted Roman Catholic perversion of verses like this to say our works of righteousness contribute to our salvation.

[boatbums]

I obey my Church and don't deny any scripture, even though we deny much of Protestant heresies that they spin around the Holy Scripture. For details, wait for the book.

The Roman Catholic Church is the master of spin - Scripture, history, people, decretals, you name it!

If you plan to use any of the conversations on this thread in this book of yours, just be sure you get Jim Robinson's permission first.

I won't need to wait it as I wouldn't buy one much less read it even if it was given to me. I doubt it will come up with anything new or break any new ground in Mariolatry. You'll just be preaching to the choir as they say.

[antceecee]

I see that the attack on Catholics continues on FR.

[boatbums]

Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. (James 5:13-16)

Tsk, tsk, why did you ignore the verses that surround the one you posted? It's okay when YOU do it but others you criticize when you presume they are doing what you actually ARE doing here? They give the CONTEXT after all. See how much clearer it is? James was NOT advocating for prayers to dead saints. That is a counterscriptural illusion if I ever saw one.

[boatbums]

I hope you also see the attack continuing on non-Catholic Christians. That is what most of these are responding to. Try to be fair minded.

[antceecee]

No Christian should be attacking another Christian.