Veneration of Mary in Luke 11:27-28

August 15, 2013 | Annalex

[annalex]

Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:

Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)

What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:

Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)

The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source

Note that there is no condemnation here, not even asking the woman to stop; the "yea rather" (μενουνγε) is not a negation. It is used other times in the New Testament without a hint of negation. In Philippians 3:8 "αλλα μενουνγε και ηγουμαι παντα ζημιαν ειναι", "Furthermore I count all things to be but loss" (Textus Receptus 1550/1894, Byzantine/Majority Text 2000 has here "αλλα μεν ουν και ηγουμαι…" which is the same word morphology spelled separately and colliding affirmative "γε" with the following "και"). Romans 9:20 "μενουνγε ω ανθρωπε συ τις ει ο ανταποκρινομενος τω θεω" and Romans 10:18 "μενουνγε εις πασαν την γην εξηλθεν ο φθογγος αυτων" use the word reinforcing the subsequent statement. Some translations obscure this linguistic fact: in King James for example, the same word is rendered correctly, "yea rather" in Luke 11:28, wholly incongruously, "nay but" in Romans 9:20, but in Romans 10:18 the translation is again correct, "Yes verily". NRSV has both correct and elegant translations for all three. (See The Holy Mother and the "ΜΕΝΟΥΝΓΕ")

Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.

[Elsie]

I get the other half...

[Elsie]

Your smugness is awe inspiring.

[Elsie]

I’m assuming I’m grossly missunderstanding you here.

You're not.

[Elsie]

...except that of their salvation we can be sure.

Cause the church says it's so.

[Elsie]

Yes we absolutely should pray to saints, for in order to be saved yourself you need to learn to be in the company of saints.

I find the above statement to be, shall we say, SPECIAL!!!

[CynicalBear]

>>It doesn't because salvation is not promised to the unbaptized, or to those who don't receive Catholic Communion.<<

CCC 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. So, no real need for belief in Jesus ey?

That sir, is “another gospel”.

Here is what the apostles taught.

Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

[Elsie]

Second, where in His word...

On second thought...

[Elsie]

Birds of a feather...

[CynicalBear]

>>No, I actually said rather the opposite, with St. Paul, that you are not saved by the works of any human law.<<

Oh great day!! “Well bless your heart”. Most of you Southerners will understand that. Other than that I’m speechless. Anyone?

[Elsie]

This was asked and never answered by the person it was addressed.

I answered before you asked: #119

[CynicalBear]

Read it and can only tell you that we have been through those in this thread already and anyone reposting them that thinks they made an impression is sorely mistaken. And a little late to the party.

[Elsie]

This was asked and never answered by the person it was addressed.

It was also quite easy to discern the answer by looking at all I've posted here; or on my homepage.

It ain't rocket surgery to discern when someone does NOT talk about the Organization they belong to; what they AIN'T!

[Elsie]

But what constitutes true belief?

Did GOD really say... Genesis 3

[metmom]

This really confuses me and I admit I am late to this thread. Are you actually suggesting that one should pray to someone other than Jesus/God? I’m assuming I’m grossly missunderstanding you here.

No, not by a long shot. He's not suggesting, he's advocating.

Posting histories are your friend.

[metmom]

[metmom]

Here is what the apostles taught. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

It's worse than that.

That's PETER speaking....

[CynicalBear]

>> You will have to pray to her very hard for that to happen.<<

ROFL Isn’t it something how words matter. We find out the truth from those who would deceive us at times in the most interesting ways. And I would not be surprised at all if in one of the next posts from you we will get a response of how Catholics do NOT pray TO their supposed saints.

[Elsie]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CynicalBear]

>> Yes we absolutely should pray to saints, for in order to be saved yourself you need to learn to be in the company of saints. Find the saint that you like, learn of his life and ask him to pray with you and to lead you, and soon you will be firmly on the road to salvation, -- assuming you are validly baptized.<<

Would you please show us the proof that the apostles taught that?

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8-9

[CynicalBear]

>> But what constitutes true belief? More needs to be said, including the fact that true faith is accompanied by works, since "faith without works is dead."<<

Jesus answered that.

“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29

Why do you keep denying that?