Veneration of Mary in Luke 11:27-28

August 15, 2013 | Annalex

[annalex]

Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:

Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)

What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:

Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)

The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source

Note that there is no condemnation here, not even asking the woman to stop; the "yea rather" (μενουνγε) is not a negation. It is used other times in the New Testament without a hint of negation. In Philippians 3:8 "αλλα μενουνγε και ηγουμαι παντα ζημιαν ειναι", "Furthermore I count all things to be but loss" (Textus Receptus 1550/1894, Byzantine/Majority Text 2000 has here "αλλα μεν ουν και ηγουμαι…" which is the same word morphology spelled separately and colliding affirmative "γε" with the following "και"). Romans 9:20 "μενουνγε ω ανθρωπε συ τις ει ο ανταποκρινομενος τω θεω" and Romans 10:18 "μενουνγε εις πασαν την γην εξηλθεν ο φθογγος αυτων" use the word reinforcing the subsequent statement. Some translations obscure this linguistic fact: in King James for example, the same word is rendered correctly, "yea rather" in Luke 11:28, wholly incongruously, "nay but" in Romans 9:20, but in Romans 10:18 the translation is again correct, "Yes verily". NRSV has both correct and elegant translations for all three. (See The Holy Mother and the "ΜΕΝΟΥΝΓΕ")

Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.

[Iscool]

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Unless one is so crooked he has to screw his socks on in the morning, he can't honestly mistake what the verse says...I have said unto you

Whatever Jesus said...Has any pope ever heard what Jesus said??? Absolutely not...There wasn't a pope within 600 years of Jesus when ye said that...Jesus brought to remembrance WHAT HE SAID to the people who initially heard it...Not some clown down the road in history...

[CynicalBear]

>>Luther's doctrine isn't in the Bible. That's a logical contradiction.<<

Yet you just told me “so what” that the assumption of Mary is not in scripture. The duplicity is astounding! Nothing you say seems to be consistent.

[CynicalBear]

>>their pope says you don't even need faith to be a Christian... <<

That alone should be enough evidence that they preach “another gospel”.

[BlueDragon]

"... Jesus certainly did not receive His divinity from Mary, for Mary could not give what she did not possess.

Saying very much the same thing myself to a papist here, led to the retort from that one;

"You divide Christ!"

How "protestant" of you. Or are you a closeted Nestorian perhaps?

I make that statement, and pose the question following to highlight some of the sort or argumentation Protestants have been repeatedly bashed in the face with, on this forum.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

We, on the other hand, can be assured that what the apostles wrote is truth.

If you don't trust the Church that wrote, preserved and canonized the Scriptures, then how can you trust the Scriptures themselves? Such a belief is illogical.

For the doctrine of "the Bible alone" to be coherent at all, the Church would have had to have acted infallibly in writing and preserving Scripture, up to and including the process of the canonization of Scripture, around the year 300 A.D., or Trent, around 1500 A.D.

But if the Church then apostasized, what of Christ's promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church?

[Iscool]

"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."

I doubt that you are even believing what you are saying, or implying...

If you have an issue with another Catholic, do you take the issue to your pope??? Do you go to the Vatican??? Of course you don't...You take it to your local body...Your parish...That's the church; the local body of believers...

So in my view you actually do know that the verse doesn't reference a hierarchy of some religion...

[Iscool]

Is there scriptural support for the idea that every religious teaching must be referenced in the Bible?

Absolutely, if it's doctrine...And the assumption of Mary is doctrine...It ain't there so it ain't real...

[CynicalBear]

>>If you don't trust the Church that wrote, preserved and canonized the Scriptures, then how can you trust the Scriptures themselves?<<

So Paul, Mark, John, and Peter were Catholics as we understand the word Catholic as in RCC today? Go figure! That statement about the RCC is incredibly arrogant and attempts to give credit to man for what God has done.

>>But if the Church then apostasized, what of Christ's promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church?<<

The assemblies He was talking about have not apostatized, is not the RCC, and indeed will prevail until He returns to take them to heaven.

[Iscool]

King James didn't hand out Bibles at Pentecost.

I wouldn't worry about that...There's enough in the Douay-Rheims to save someone, and, to send those to hell who try to get in the back door with their self-righteous works...

[CynicalBear]

Duplicitous comes to mind.

[Iscool]

But if the Church then apostasized, what of Christ's promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church?

The 'real' church has always been there, outside the barb-wire covered walls of the Catholic religion...Your religion was very successful in crushing massive amounts of them but there was always a remnant that survived, by the grace of God...

[Iscool]

right on the money...

[metmom]

Whoo Hoo!

1,000!!!

[metmom]

It’s staggering, isn’t it?

When their doctrine isn’t in the Bible, it’s *So what?* *It can be inferred*, etc.

When they claim sola scriptura or sola fide isn’t in the Bible (which it is, they just won’t accept the verses) then if it’s not mentioned by name as they think it should be, no mountain of proof will convince them.

[metmom]

If you don't trust the Church that wrote, preserved and canonized the Scriptures, then how can you trust the Scriptures themselves? Such a belief is illogical.

Because *the Church* didn't write it.

Men did as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 1:19-21 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

The 'real' church has always been there, outside the barb-wire covered walls of the Catholic religion...

Christ commanded his followers to take our disagreements to the Church. Where is this visible teaching authority?

If you can't point to it, then Christ's command would be void, which is an impossibility.

But Christ did not leave his sheep without a shepherd. And He gave His Apostolic Church the Holy Spirit to guide it.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Who teaches? Christ's Apostles; His Church.

[Gamecock]

***what of Christ's promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church***

Let's look at the proper context.

A gate is not an offensive weapon. It is purely defensive. The Gates of Hell aren't attacking the church. These gates are trying to keep the church OUT!

The Gates of Hell are no defense against the pure preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the Gospel preaching Church that is on the offensive, not Hell.

If Rome wants to remain on defense, as displayed by Roman Catholic teaching, ya’ll do so. Hide in your bunkers. Jesus has kicked the gates down and captives are being set free every day. I'm going through those gates to preach Jesus to the captives who have not yet heard that they are free!

Isaiah 51:14 The cowering prisoners will soon be set free; they will not die in their dungeon, nor will they lack bread.

Luke 4:17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

[Gamecock]

Where is this visible teaching authority?

Right here:

Pick up and read.

[Iscool]

Christ commanded his followers to take our disagreements to the Church. Where is this visible teaching authority?

You guys ignore the real teaching authority, the invisible one...And of course the bible...

When it comes to teaching authority, what could be more clear than the Ten Commandments which are in every Christian bible out there...

While we will not be judged by the Commandments, they are our schoolmaster...If a church can not figure out how to mete out judgment based on those commandments, they are not a Christian church...

Christ commanded his followers to take our disagreements to the Church. Where is this visible teaching authority? If you can't point to it, then Christ's command would be void, which is an impossibility.

Oh, I can absolutely point to it...It is God's words he put into the scriptures...God provided everything we need in those scriptures...What has your religion contributed thru it's ongoing tradition that doesn't corrupt or pervert the words of God in scripture???

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Who teaches? Christ's Apostles; His Church.

There hasn't been an apostle teaching for 2000 years...If you'll read the epistles you'll find out it's the pastors and deacons who preach and teach...Along with the 'teachers' in every local assembly...And NOT his Church...His churches...

[HarleyD]

I know Protestants who have true faith, but then their faith is, a working, Catholic faith.

As Augustine quoted the scripture:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Less we be puffed up with pride, our good works have been prepared before the foundation of the world for us to do. Good works is evidence of our salvation. They are works of God given to us. If you doubt this, then the next time you drop funds into the offering, ask yourself where did those funds truly come from.

Psa_73:28 But for me it is good to be near God; I have made the Lord GOD my refuge, that I may tell of all your works.