Posted on 07/14/2013 3:02:43 PM PDT by NYer
>> “The fact that they don’t say what he claims they do? They don’t say anything of the sort?” <<
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Are you insane?
The inserts in the book are photographs taken with a camera, do pictures lie?
“The inserts in the book are photographs taken with a camera, do pictures lie?”
Do the inserts show that semiaramis was a soprano?
from dictionary.com: Pray: 1. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2.to offer (a prayer).
3. to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
4. to make earnest petition to (a person).
5. to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.
8. to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing.
from websters-online-dictionary.org: Address a deity, a prophet, a saint or an object of worship; say a prayer; "pray to the Lord".[Wordnet]
2. Call upon in supplication; entreat.[Wordnet]
3. Address God; say a prayer.[Wordnet]
4. See Pry.[Websters]
5. To make request with earnestness or zeal, as for something desired; to make entreaty or supplication; to offer prayer to a deity or divine being as a religious act; specifically, to address the Supreme Being with adoration, confession, supplication, and thanksgiving.[Websters]
6. To address earnest request to; to supplicate; to entreat; to implore; to beseech.[Websters]
7. To ask earnestly for; to seek to obtain by supplication; to entreat for.[Websters]
8. To effect or accomplish by praying; as, to pray a soul out of purgatory.[Websters]
9. Base verb from the following inflections: praying, prayed, prays, prayer, prayers, prayingly and prayedly. ---
You said: Indeed, which is why Catholics don’t pray to Saints.
Yet go on to say: Occasionally I will ask him to pray for me. More often I will ask St. Therese (who’s a wonderful and very holy lady), and Mary sometimes too.
So, if it wasn't through prayer, how did you ask these saints to pray for you? Did you send them an email? Did you call them on the phone? Did you go over to their house and engage in after dinner conversation? Or maybe, you got them on Skype? Perhaps you sent them FReepmail?
I'll say again: “Christianity is not a chose your own adventure novel where you get to pick the wording and arrange things to mean what you want.”
Wise words from a protestant! Indeed.
Further, you did not make a single Scriptural reference. You did however, reference the Apostle's Creed and the communion of saints.
Communion: 1. ( often initial capital letter ) . Also called Holy Communion. Ecclesiastical.
a.the act of receiving the Eucharistic elements.
b.the elements of the Eucharist.
c.the celebration of the Eucharist.
d.the antiphon sung at a Eucharistic service.
2.a group of persons having a common religious faith; a religious denomination: Anglican communion.
3.association; fellowship.
4.interchange or sharing of thoughts or emotions; intimate communication: communion with nature.
5.the act of sharing, or holding in common; participation.
Let's see a Scriptural reference:
I Corinthians 12:11-14, 27For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. 27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
Sounds to me like sharing, or holding in common' participation. We [on earth] and the [saints] are of the body of Christ and have communion. Still doesn't mean we have to pray, or email, or call, or pay a house visit to a saint.
Aside from that, chapter and verse, where is the Apostle's Creed in the Bible? It isn't in mine for some reason.
Again, a utilitarian ethos. This is the problem. You’re saying we should only do what is ‘needed’ without asking the question - how do you know what God wants? Are you God?
I don't need to be God to be able to read what Jesus stated as our example and instruction for how to pray. I don't need to be God or play mind reader to know when you pray, pray thus "Our Father" does not equal "Dear Person the Catholic Church decided to beatify." I also don't need to be God to read that all things asked in Jesus' Name will be done and that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us in prayer.
If I were a mind reader, or pretended to read God's mind, I might think God forgot to divine to the Biblical authors and we should really be praying to saints.
Is it not said by your side that all believers (save Catholics, natch), are saints?
My remark on "perceived saints" was in reference to those the Catholic Church decided to "beatify" and "make" into a saint.
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The bible does not actually say this. A mediator is not the same as an intercessor
Intercessor: 1. A negotiator who acts as a link between parties.[Wordnet]
2. One who goes between, or intercedes; a mediator. (a) One who interposes between parties at variance, with a view to reconcile them. (b) One who pleads in behalf of another.[Websters]
3. A bishop, who, during a vacancy of the see, administers the bishopric till a successor is installed.[Websters].
Words don't seem to mean what you think they do, and mean what you think they do not. Perhaps you should listen to some more wise words from Protestants.....and maybe a dictionary.
---
[“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.”] I don’t see the word ‘intercession’ here anywhere No, but you can see Him interceding.....particularly in the part I put in bold.
Ok, great. You do that. what gives you the authority to demand that others do as you wish because you believe it’s ‘unnecessary’. Does God say it is unnecessary or do you say this?
I didn't "demand" anything. I pointed out what Scripture says and stated it wasn't necessary - never did I demand "do not do this." If you feel I did, I can copy/paste the definition of "demand" for you. God gives us instruction and revelation in Scripture for what we need to do. Jesus told us what we need to do and provided a guideline for how to pray. Paul wrote about the Holy Spirit providing an intercession to prayer detailing who intercedes for us - I'm sorry saints aren't listed as an object of our prayer.
Did Jesus say, “don’t ask the saints in heaven to pray for you?” If not, why then do you believe this? Someone taught you this.
Because Jesus taught me this. He taught me to pray Luke 11:2-4 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. In every instance Jesus prayed to the Father; no one else. The instructions are clear.
If you have Scriptural references contradicting anything I've posted, by all means please enlighten me. If it is something created by the papacy, don't bother.
http://archive.org/download/theTwoBabylons/TheTwoBabylons.pdf
That is not the issue, but a straw man, as the real issue is whether Scripture teaches prayer to departed saints, (PTDS ) which it manifestly does not. See my recent post in response to another vain attempt to support PTDS, some of which errors this post also contains.
Now we come to the sticky question: "Are the deceased missioned or simply awaiting the consummation?"...Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses,
Even if they were watching this does not teach they are to be prayed to, or are interceding, but here the RC leaps to a conclusion the text does not teach, which is due to the fact that despite the multitude of prayers in Scripture, the Holy Spirit provides absolutely zero examples of any believer praying to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, or in any instructions on who to pray to in Heaven ("our Father who art in Heaven, " not "our mother," etc.), and communication btwn created beings from their respective realms required both being in either earth or heaven.
And yet as it is, Hebrews 12:1 does not necessarily teach that saints are literally watching us anymore than we are to be literally "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith," (Hebrews 12:2) but that in we are surrounded by the examples of faith listed in the previous chapter (11), and "look" unto the Lord of Scripture, the author and finisher of our faith.
In the above verse, is the "Angel" a former, glorified Christian, for he says "I am a fellow servant with you...who hold to the testimony of Jesus?" Jesus did say, "Matthew 22:30 NIV At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."
Once again the Catholic is reading into the text that which is not warranted by it, as Scripture simply does not teach the entity of Revelation 19: 9; 22: 8 was a human who became an angel, nor that they will become so, and contextually the Lord's words were that believes will be like angels in that they do not marry, as they have spiritual bodies.
If the angel is a former Christian, now glorified, then believers are given Mission/Work to do and are not just "awaiting the consummation" in heaven.
But the Catholic conclusion that follows is, of necessity, a forced interpretation by the Catholic. That believers will be privileged to serve the Lord is supported, (Rv. 22:3), but conversely, that they are to be prayed to and can process virtually infinite amounts of prayer is not , but is read into Scripture by Catholics trying to do what the Holy Spirit does not.
In the transfiguration stories in the gospels, we again see the "deceased in the Lord" being ACTIVE and not passive.
Again, that they may be active does not support PTDS, and here, this was a personal encounter in which heavenly beings came to earth, and as in other communications btwn created beings in heaven and those on earth then they both were in either of the two realms. In contrast, God is the only being in heaven ever shown being prayed to .
Meanwhile, the only example of PTDS is pagan: “But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her“ (Jeremiah 44:17)
We could also put up Jesus' story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and in it we see a direct question about the deceased being used to deliver a message to those living on earth.
But which was visible personal communication btwn two persons out of the earthly realm of the flesh and blood, not that of mortals on earth mentally praying to saints in glory. Nor did the rich man ask Abraham or Lazarus to pray to Go for his concerns. .
This, however, is connected to the mission of Elijah. We just saw Elijah talking to Jesus with Moses, so there is a real, living Elijah.
But which again, this is not that of humans praying to those in glory, and instead, what this text supports is the observation that communications btwn created beings from heaven and those on earth required that they both were in either of the two realms, not praying to heaven from earth, except directly to God.
The two witness of Revelation 11 also suggest that the deceased are missioned
But which is that of men on earth, not praying to them in heaven. Thus by one vain attempt to support PTDS after another it is made manifest it has no real support despite efforts of ecclesiastical extrapolations
This suggests that individual angels are guardians, that they see what transpires with little ones, and that they report to God.
And which does not praying to them, but testifies to how the Holy Spirit is faithful to provide what is necessary for faith and doctrine, and only teaches God as being the object of prayer to Heaven, and that believers in Christ have direct immediate access to God in Heaven, (Heb. 10:19) and the sufficiency of Christ as the uniquely able and available ceaseless intercessor, to God be the glory.
Time for bed now.
Please don’t ping me to your posts. I am most definitely not interested in your personal opinions.
No it doesn't...It says that God is the pillar and ground of the truth...And that truth is revealed 'to the church' by the written word of God...
The Old Testament is full of truth...The OT was around long before the church showed up...So obviously the church can not be the ground of the truth...It was already there...
Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus/God/Holy Spirit is the pillar and ground of the truth...Jesus himself says so...And more specifically, it is the words of God by which that truth is revealed to us...
Psa_119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
Psa_138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
As usual, your religion has taken a single verse, not proved it, and perverted it out of context and built a false dogma on top of it...
The bible will straighten out your false teachings every time...
No it doesn't...Pray is worship...Pray thee, I pray thee or you is to make a request...
Which somehow includes all of you but magically excludes Catholics like a forcefield that says ‘not christian’.
Nope...I already stated that it likely includes some Catholics...Even tho they may not know it...
Hislop was disagreed with...He was never debunked...
As for me, I will simply continue to pray to the Father in Jesus' Name in the form, structure and priority He stipulated. Namely,
Following the Lord's prayer keeps the perspective as it should be, as He explains, continuing in verse 14-15:
Nobody is telling you anywhere that humans are omnipresent. You are completely misinterpreting that.
You said in post #215 the following:
"Saints in Heaven cannot hear every prayer on earth. Only god has the power to do that."
Do you believe that God has the power to enable human saints in heaven to hear multiple requests for prayers from humans on Earth requesting that that particular saint pray with/for them?
Do you really believe "With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26? You are not only imposing arbitrary constrictions on saints, but you are also imposing constrictions on God.
Please read the following extract of a great article discussing these issues which can be found here:
"Any Friend of God is a Friend of Mine" By Patrick Madrid
How Could They Hear All those Prayers?There’s also the "multiple prayer" objection: How can the saints hear all those millions of simultaneous prayers, in all those different languages? That would require them to be omniscient and omnipresent, but only God is omniscient and omnipresent.
This is faulty reasoning on three levels.
First, since the saints are living in eternity they are not limited by time and space because they are beyond both. One might say it takes no time at all to hear all those prayers because the saints have no time.
Second, there is a finite number of people on earth, so there is a finite number of prayers at any one time. So, neither omniscience nor omnipresence is required to hear all the prayers ever prayed at one time, no matter how great their number.
Third, our inability to understand how the saints hear so many prayers is hardly a reason to deny that they can hear them. In their glorified state the saints are capable of doing things we can barely imagine: "Eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, [nor has it] entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him" (1 Cor 2:9). Those in heaven rejoice over the repentance of even one sinner (Lk 15:7, 10), but we have no details about how they can know about individual repentances.
We know that in heaven we will be transformed into the image of Christ’s glorious, resurrected body. "We shall be like him," Paul assures us (Phil 3:20-21). John says, "We are God’s children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn 3:2). In his resurrected, glorified body, Jesus did all sorts of incredible things, such as walk through walls (Jn 20:19). "So also is the resurrection of the dead. [The body] is sown corruptible; it is raised incorruptible. It is sown dishonorable; it is raised glorious. It is sown weak; it is raised powerful" (1 Cor 15:42-43). Heaven is an amazing place filled with people who, by God’s infinite grace, are capable of doing amazing things.
I urge you to go back and study those texts just a wee bit more.
(That sounds like those strict Amish or Quakers who don't believe in riding in cars or planes, or watching television. because they were not mentioned in the Bible.)
The New Testament does give examples of Christians asking for prayers from other Christians, such as this request: "I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf." (Rom 15:30)
How this applies to saints who have died is discussed more fully and competently in a scripture-filled article about this subject that I referred someone else to in a previous post, which is located here:
"Any Friend of God is a Friend of Mine" By Patrick Madrid
I urge you (and all here) to read that illuminating article prayerfully.
Goodnight all.
This article posed the question “Where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints?”
I gave you a biblical explanation for believing that those who have gone on to be with the Lord having a function as opposed to having no function.
I suggested their function leaves open the possibility that they might hear us, so that ADDRESSING them could be possible, and that in limited circumstances there could actually be hearing that takes place. (Another possibility would be Balaam, the angel, and the ass.) While unseen by Balaam, the angel was aware of what transpired and what was said.
I am more comfortable believing the dead in Christ have a function rather than having no function. I don’t think I’ve locked it down scripturally, but what I’ve considered certainly suggests thinking along these lines is supportable scripturally.
I do believe that the spiritual dimension intersects our earthly realm and that both transport and communication between those realms is scriptural. Paul and John were both lifted to the heavenlies prior to their deaths.
You already asked that and I already answered that question for you.
Just because God has the power to do anything doesn't mean he does.
There's no reason to think that saints in Heaven can hear prayers. A group of people can make up any theology...doesn't mean that's a reason to think it's true.
God is perfectly sufficient and able to handle all prayers. There's no record in the massive history recorded in the Bible of a saint on earth praying to anyone but God. There's a reason for that.
That's an easy one...
Now before I give you chapter & verse, a few qualifiers are in order:
(a) I am not Roman Catholic;
(b) I believe prayer is reserved as the Bible depicts it -- as to be directed to God alone;
(c) The apostle Paul's counsel to Timothy about Jesus being the ONLY MEDIATOR is downright ignored by Catholic doctrinaires & Catholics who advocate praying to entities beyond God;
and (d) AMorePerfectUnion's first post on this thread is a great synopsis of what's wrong with those who argue from silence on this whole issue.
But, having said that, yes...departed saints can -- and do indeed -- lobby our Lord in heaven...and I base that on this passage:
Revelation 6: 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
So...Cynical...go ahead & be cynical...but your tone toward Catholics on this particular matter needs a bit more humility...asking the question in a manner that assumes topical "MIA" status from the Bible...yet only serves to reveal your own Biblical ignorance instead.
The question is more, "Why should anybody -- especially Catholics -- assume that departed saints are omniscient or neo-omniscient in being able to tune in to all those prayers directed to God?"
And, secondly, "Why would anybody assume that a 'prayer' to a departed saint or to Mary would somehow 'trump' a prayer directed to the Son of God? Why does He get 'semi-mediator' status in their eyes?"
Yes, the reason is that no human being was in heaven until Jesus died, so no one asked them to pray for them in heaven in the Old Testament because they weren't there yet. The righteous dead were in the "bosom of Abraham", waiting for their Savior.
The Old Testament was written before Jesus was born. The New Testament does not list very many prayers, and you have to remember that most of the people mentioned in the New Testament were still alive when the "books" of the New Testament were finished being written, so they would obviously not have been petitioned in heaven to pray for anyone here on Earth if they were still alive here on Earth themselves.
Goodnight.
Hislop was helpful in that he tied together a lot of ancient religions and practices.Much of that stood out more to me than anything anti-RC,though that in itself was interesting.No where near as interesting as this forum though.
Well you obviously attempted so your IQ is .......
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