Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?

catholic-convert ^ | July 11, 2012 | Steve Ray

[JCBreckenridge]

Ok, so when was the Catholic church founded?

[JCBreckenridge]

So you’re saying that if the Gospel were inaccurate that it would be authoritative?

It’s authoritative because it’s accurate. Again, as St. Paul says, if the Gospel is a lie than we are doomed and we are in our sins.

[JCBreckenridge]

So you’re saying that if the Gospel were inaccurate that it would be authoritative?

It’s authoritative because it’s accurate. Again, as St. Paul says, if the Gospel is a lie than we are doomed and we are in our sins.

[JCBreckenridge]

I have exactly zero doubt that she’s an ex-Catholic.

[verga]

I see you started first...

Did God teach you that??? Or are you using your uncommon common sense???

So God is still back at Creation creating the earth...And God is opening the Red Sea Right now...And God is sitting on his Throne in the New Jerusalem that he hasn't built yet...

And the Holy Spirit is overcoming the virgin Mary, right now...

That's it, isn't it...You have to somehow justify your 'Mass' where Jesus is dying, every day of the week all over the world...

Essentially, yes that is it, ignoring the snotty ignorant comment

You guys try to push this fable on each other and us that claims Jesus is being Crucified on the Cross, right now...It never ended...It's happening right now...

Funny you guys didn't focus on the end of the Crucifixion where Jesus is being raised...Jesus is being raised right now...

So Jesus is being raised right now, Jesus is being Crucified right now and Jesus is being conceived right now...

You keep your fables, we'll stick with what God actually told us in his scriptures...

Well then I guess the ball is in your court to explain how God is Infinite and Eternal.

[verga]

It does not.

Wow, you just had the stones to make a comment to a Catholic about a courtesy ping.

[verga]

So, let me get this right....

The CCC and the ex cathedra proclamations of the past popes to not really mean what they said?

IOW, when the pope was infallibly speaking on there being no salvation outside the Catholic church, then it wasn’t really infallible? Or what?

No JC is saying that you just don't comprehend what you are reading.

Tell me how two contradictory things can be true at the same time They aren't just your (Mis)understanding.

[ShadowAce]

It’s authoritative because it’s accurate.

Incorrect. Josephus wrote plenty of accurate things about biblical events and people--but none of it is Scripture.

Scripture is authoritative because it was authored by God Himself. The people who put pen to parchment were merely scribes.

[Elsie]

 

 

[Elsie]

Are RC's guilty of some form of Necromancy?

Well; if we contacted DEAD people I guess you'd have a case.

But we only contact LIVE people!

--CatholicDude(Simple; once you think about it!)

[Elsie]

Kinda...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesleyan_Church

[Elsie]

“For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.”

So THIS is where the MORMONs got THEIR idea from!!

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In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)     http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng

[Elsie]

Thanks for the information. My Mom and sister are Methodist, but I wasn’t aware that there was a separate Wesleyan Church.

There have been some discussions bandied about that the two should unite.

I don't think it'll happen; for we see too much compromise with the world in a lot of Methodist congregations.

If the UMC would clean up THEIR act; then perhaps something may come of the discussions.

[presently no screen name]

The Supreme Authority for Catholics is Almighty God.

Saying that with the mouth but the heart is far from it - is being hypocritical. Because catholics serve 'man which is evil' and hear/obey their teachings designed to deceived.

CATHOLICS HEAR and OBEY 'man' and their teachings so it's hypocritical to say GOD is their supreme authority.

Isaiah and Jesus already called out those under the thumb of 'man which is evil' as hypocrites. So If GOD IS the catholics' supreme authority they MUST believe HIM when HE said that and REPENT NOW and shame the devil or the HYPOCRITE title is theirs.

"'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely HUMAN rules." Matthew 15:8,9

Catholics, mormons, muslims are NOT under God's covenant and therefore, on their own and GOD'S PROMISES do NOT belong to them. With deceitful lips they try to claim it but they do NOT have it!

But to the wicked person, God says: "What right have you to recite my laws or take my covenant on your lips? Psalm 50:16

He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; THEIR TEACHINGS are MERELY HUMAN RULES.'

"These rules, which have to do with things that are ALL destined to PERISH with use, are based on MERELY HUMAN RULES and COMMANDS". Colossians 2:22

So the catechism, the book of mormons and koran will be burned up - as they all have been deceived by 'man which is evil'. Catholics, wise up or you will spend eternity learning a lesson you could have learned RIGHT NOW!

A prayer of David. Hear me, LORD, my plea is just; listen to my cry. Hear my prayer-- it does not rise from deceitful lips. "Psalm 17:1

OBEY Jesus The Word or perish.

[FourtySeven]

Ok fair enough. I was wrong in my guess about what you would say. So...

Fine. Let me just state directly: let’s assume for the sake of our “discussion” that you are right, and that there are some on earth who are just as righteous as those in heaven. ( note, here I’m not agreeing that is the case I’m only putting that issue aside for the moment for the sake of discussion )

Then I don’t see how it’s “bad” to ask those in heaven to also pray for me (in addition to asking any “righteous” here on earth to pray for me). After all, their (the righteous in heaven) prayers can “availeth” at least as much as the (few) righteous here on earth.

Right?

Or now are you going to pull the “those in heaven can’t hear your request to pray for them?” Or do you not believe they (those in heaven, like our departed loved ones for example) care about us anymore? Or maybe you’ll go with the tried (but not true) “it’s necromancy to pray to the dead”.

Or what?

I’m genuinely curious to see what objection you may now offer, if any, given the stipulation I conceded above (that “ok, there are some on earth that are as righteous as those in heaven”)

[Elsie]

The earliest church fathers mostly used words in their writings which match those words found in those later (Protestant) manuscripts will ignoring those of the Catholic religion...What a coincidence, eh??? Kinda like the Dead Sea Scrolls...

Speaking of WORDS...

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The "Caractors" are the only tangible evidence in existence related to Smith's story.

No gold plates, no brass plates, no peep stones, no Urim and Thummim...

only these "Caractors," not a single one of which is in the purported languages.

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Smith's translation of the Caractors. According to Martin Harris (Joseph Smith - History, 1:64), "I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated,* and he said they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters."

Speak right up now in all truthfulness. Isn't it revealing how Smith started out making a stab at creating believable "caractors" but quckly gave up and produced nothing but squiggles, ending up wih a series of nothing more than crude little scribbles? Yet Professor Anthon supposedly translated them!

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*Harris must have had two or three pieces of paper with him—one with characters and a translation of them (on the same paper or a separate one) and one with untranslated characters—quite likely the "Caractors." Some Mormon "scholars" have gone out on a limb, sawed it off, and knocked themselves out trying to translate from these true Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic characters a segment that would correspond with a verse from 1 Nephi.

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Modern-day experts in Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic. In 1829, any knowledge of these languages possessed by U.S. scholars would have been rudimentary at best. Expertise in them has vastly improved since then. So go ahead, do it. Get any modern expert in these languages to identify which of these "Caractors" are Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac and Arabic. Better still, accept the claim of Mormon apologists that Anthon did indeed so testify and that his appraisal of the Caractors was correct. (Op. cit, pp. 73-75)

Save your money! Samples of Assyriac/Aramaic and Arabic writing:

 

What say you? Which of Smith's "Caractors" resemble the Assyriac and Arabic ones? No need to pay experts for their analysis. A child could accurately check this out. These writing systems have remained constant for well over 3000 years.

[Elsie]

...here he affirms that Abraham was not dead - he was alive.

Oh?

And you got this info from THIS???

“Before Abraham was I am.”

[Elsie]

The RCC on the other hand, uses Codex Vaticanus as the primary source text.

Dated... when?

[Revolting cat!]

Wow, can you say it all again with a little more venom, saintly you?!

[Elsie]

If one is not saved through the Church - than the Bible cannot save anyone.

He said, smugly.