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To: Mrs. Don-o; Greetings_Puny_Humans; Heart-Rest
The error here, is that you apparently have no perspective which would allow you to appreciate that the Citizens of Heaven (saints and angels) have very high giftedness, which is still finite, and still always radically less than God's infinite capacity. You see no gradations, no differences. Many, many creatures can have dramatically more capacities than I do, and be much more spiritually gifted, and not be divine, just as an angel can have more powers and abilities than I do, without being divine.

This is a perfectly valid point and one "GPH" seems to be missing but I'd also like to point to an even more basic point, one I believe should, at least for any open-minded lurker, make it clear that the "ability" to hear "simultaneous" prayers does not necessarily imply "omnipresence and/or "omnipotence"

Those two terms are reserved for what God can and does do "on earth" (or more broadly, in our universe). Our universe constrained and defined by linear time. (As an aside, I feel its important to note, no one says the saints come down to earth AND ALSO interact with ALL humanity at once here, on earth.)

Those "in" heaven are not so constrained. That's because heaven is not really a place (or other dimension, or any other physically definable entity or space), it's really a state of being. A state of being where one is literally outside of time (or more precisely outside the constraints of time).

So given this notion of heaven, it can be "easily" seen, if one dwells on that concept a bit (the concept of being outside of time) how it could be infinitely easy to receive all the prayers directed toward oneself "while in" heaven.

To put it in a very simple way, if one has an infinite amount of time to receive even a google plex of prayers, it's entirely possible because even for such a large set of prayers, given an infinite amount of time to both hear and answer them, it would be pretty much like hearing only one prayer for all eternity.

Just sit back and think about it, with an open mind willing to admit alternate possibilities. And you will see that not only what I wrote above is true, but also that what I wrote above does not require omni-anything on the part of the saint in question, since it's not occurring on earth (or any physical dimension), but rather "in" heaven (or in the state of being called heaven).

198 posted on 05/29/2013 12:13:06 PM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: FourtySeven; Greetings_Puny_Humans
"Just sit back and think about it..."

Too many posters do not think, ponder or ruminate before they spout. The discussion as to the limitations and abilities of spiritual creatures was allegedly "proved" by a single verse from Daniel, but it required that we suspend all other knowledge of angels and other spiritual creatures to accept it. It ignores that there are nine types of angels and that each individual angel is a unique species. Are we to conclude that angels are identical? It begs that all considerations of time and space be perceived through human senses (empiricism) and discounts the possibility of multiple points of both time and space converging on a single spiritual creature. It ignores the fact that Satan was an angel who today possesses multipresent capabilities.

Peace be with you

199 posted on 05/29/2013 12:36:23 PM PDT by Natural Law (Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem.)
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To: FourtySeven

“This is a perfectly valid point and one “GPH” seems to be missing but I’d also like to point to an even more basic point, one I believe should, at least for any open-minded lurker, make it clear that the “ability” to hear “simultaneous” prayers does not necessarily imply “omnipresence and/or “omnipotence””


It is not just Mary hearing but a few prayers at the same time. It’s Mary hearing every prayer made to her by every Catholic in the world, at the same time, in more than one place, in more than one language, by more than one person, every minute, every hour, and every year. You can’t just sit there and claim “Okay, she is multipresent, but she’s not OMNIPRESSENT!!!” or “Okay, she knows all the languages in the world, and the intimate details of each person’s life, but she’s not OMNISCIENT!” It’s like telling me that the Easter Bunny is real, but you don’t believe in it.

This line of reasoning is only valid for a person determined to cling to their fables and to deify a human spirit. Notice that not one of you have really come to terms with what it means to believe as you do. You simply downplay it absurdly, as if Mary is only hearing one or two people at the same time, who are sitting right next to her, instead of Mary existing in more than one place at one time.

“Those “in” heaven are not so constrained.”


All of this talk about people being omnipresent in heaven is simply your own invention. You have no real evidence for it, or even anything that suggests it beyond the necessity of making mental sense of the RCC’s fables. Furthermore, human beings who are alive aren’t in heaven. They’re on Earth. To hear the prayers, she must pass into our “dimension,” as you put it. Recall the point I made to Natural Law, before he punted and went straight for the insult. The angel Gabriel was not always present with Daniel. He was held up for some 20 or more days with the demonic “Prince” of that realm, and therefore could not meet with Daniel when he wished. If Gabriel is omnipresent because he is from heaven, then Gabriel could have been with both Daniel AND contending with the demon at the same exact time. Yet, that’s not what we see.

There simply is no evidence in the scripture, or anywhere, that supports the superstitions of the RCC. I for one will not tolerate, even for a moment, the idea of a human being sharing in the divine attributes, no matter the degree.


200 posted on 05/29/2013 12:41:38 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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