It's lip-smacking good!
2Ti 2:24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will
Col 3:12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.
Actually, some conclude that the scriptural evidence goes back further than the New Testament. There is a 3.5 hour lecture on Youtube from Michael Heiser demonstrating the doctrine of the Trinity using only Old Testament sources. He concedes that a duality is easier to demonstrate, but concludes that the Trinity is there if you want to “see” it.
Heiser is a Hebrew instructor currently working for Logos Bible Software who is also an expert on ancient religions.
God refers to Himself as a plurality in Genesis 1.
While we can’t know God perfectly, we knew Him enough as revealed to us, even in the beginning of time, to know Him in truth.
The trinity is not a new doctrine. The Son of Man walked with Daniel in the fiery furnace. Jesus teaches it Himself when expositing Psalm 2, “The LORD unto my Lord has said. . .”
What is new is our refined definition and expression of it, concretely, as opposed to our more shadowy understanding in earlier times.
Oy.
Very informative. Thanks. The interesting thing is how Medieval theologians merged the Trinity to classic Greek thinking whereby time and space could be reconciled with the eternal - the body of Christ (time and space), the spirit as the unifying force, and the Father as eternity. It got so far as many interpret the German philosopher Hegel with appropriating that same basic cosmology as a means for a final synthesis of the dialectic.
Having been brought up in a protestant religion that did not recognize the Trinity conception, it was fascinating to me that the Catholic Church and so many other strains of Christianity had adopted it. Which actually makes sense when you realize that the most learned of the early Church were obviously more attuned to the pitfalls and contradictions of post Platonic Greek thinking given their education level.
This day in age we should all stand as Christians, but the origins of various doctrine is a lifelong fascination of mine.
Give me one reason for believing the Bible is the “Word of God” other than that THE CHURCH SAYS IT IS THE WORD OF GOD.
There is not a single verse or chapter in Scripture that teaches that the Scripture is the ONLY repository of revelation. The claim that ONLY Scripture is to be consulted for knowledge of God and God’s will is a HUMAN TRADITION. It is not found in the Bible.
The author mixes a lot of error in with the truth, with the point being to undermine the early Church’s understanding of the Trinity, and to make the doctrine a late addition to the faith.
In Genesis, “we made man in our image.” Who is “we”?
The Church Fathers interpreted this as evidence for the Trinity.
The Jews interpreted this as God and His angels, which is the only interpretation they could give. But obviously this “we” could only be figurative. And it’s hard to see how the angels could participate in creation from nothing, even in a figurative sense.
It's lip-smacking good!
Who needs all that pages of info? The idea came from the Word.
Bfl
But search as we will the Son is always spoken of as being inferior to the Father in the Scriptures.
“Any who disagreed were, in accordance with the edicts of the emperor and church authorities, branded heretics and dealt with accordingly. Trinity doctrine decided by trial and error.”
I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost - one in purpose but having individual personalities and functions. (I am a Mormon heretic.)
Thank you for posting this article. It was very enlightening.
DouglasKC wrote: “Note: This could be a controversial thread. Let’s remember to act in a Christian manner and exhibit the fruit of the holy spirit to those who might be reading this.”
It’s important for everyone to note that the “church” DouglasKC represents is a non-Christian religious cult, which claims that they alone possess the Holy Spirit due to their rejection of the Trinity, their embrace of dietary laws and Jewish festival observance, their denial of everlasting torment in hell, their affirmation of the possibility of salvation after death, and their doctrine that the Holy Spirit must be passed on by right-believing ministers of the UCG by direct physical contact, amongst many other disturbing facts. IOW, they believe that they are the one true church of God, and we are all members of a counterfeit religion.
However, what is most relevant to this thread is their view of God and monotheism. They are not even dualists as he falsely seems to be implying in this thread (though that is bad enough); they are, in fact, polytheists. They do not believe there is only one God, but two Gods joined together in a collective sense in a “God Family.” Below is a long post I wrote to Douglas previously, which he never addressed, but nevertheless documents the UCG’s stance on this issue.
The first part is a quick review of Trinitarian scripture, followed by information on the UCG’s views of their “open” Godhead:
That the Trinity is in the scripture, that cannot be questioned:
Mat_28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
2Co_13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all.
Isa_48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
That Jesus is literally God, there is no question of it:
Mat_1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
That the Father and Son are distinct, and yet one God, cannot be questioned:
Joh 8:17-18 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. (18) I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Joh_10:30 I and my Father are one.
God Speaking in the Old Testament:
Isa_41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isa_44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Jesus Christ speaking in the new, calling Himself by the same name. Not two different gods who are made “one” by being in the same family, but One God:
Rev_1:17 ... Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev_22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev_1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
That the Holy Spirit is God, and not an inanimate “force,” cannot be questioned:
1Co_3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Act_13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
At the center of all of this is the fact that Christianity is monotheistic. We believe in only one God, as clearly taught in the scriptures. Is YOUR religion monotheistic? Let’s find out:
According to the papers on the UCG website, their war with the Trinity actually centers on their rejection of God being limited to “only one being” (11). According to the UCG, God is one in the sense of collective unity, when 2 different beings are one in a collective sense, as sharing common goals, but not one in substance:
“This idea of collective unity is clearly demonstrated in Genesis 2:23-24, “And
Adam said: ‘This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman,
because she was taken out of Man.’ Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be
joined to his wife, and they shall become one [echad] flesh.” Here two distinct individuals are
“one” flesh. This is not talking about one in number but one in collective unity, harmony, peace
and the sharing of common goals.” (10)
Thus, the idea of there being only one God, is changed to merely a devotion to but one God, but leaves the door open for many gods to exist, citing various scriptures to allege that they are “problematic if one concludes there
is only one being called God in the Old Testament” (14). And more:
“The purpose of Deuteronomy 6:4 is to show ancient Israel that their Elohim is the only
God and that all the pagan gods are to be rejected. Thus the purpose is not to explain the nature
of God but to show that He is unique and the only God to worship.” (11)
Due to the obvious problems of this theology, your religion uses the concept of the “God Family,” and the “collective unity,” in order to maintain the idea that they are yet “one” God, though there are actually two separate beings in the Godhead (the Holy Spirit is simply done away with, since His name does not fit the “Family” concept), as they say here: “God can be defined as a family—one God family, although currently consisting of two beings” (15).
The logic follows from hence, after they deny the idea of “adoption,” that we will partake of divinity and join with God in the God-Family, IOW, become “one” in the Godhead the same way their version of Jesus and the Father are one:
“Thus, the Godhead is not a closed Trinity, nor an absolute unity of only one God, but a dynamic family unity that allows for Spirit-born believers to become the very children of God.” (41)
http://members.ucg.org/papers/NatureofGod.pdf
Throughout those entire 40 something pages, not once were any of the scriptures addressed which refute their claims. What does the scripture really say of these ideas, in brief?
That there is only one God, not defined as a “family unit,” but having no other “God” beside Him:
Isa_44:8 ... Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
This unity utterly precludes the possibility of there being “two” separate beings who are merely “united” in the sense of cooperation. There is only one God, united in substance, and yet not contradictory to when Isaiah writes the phrase “The Lord GOD, and His Spirit hath sent me.”
Neither can there be any other gods formed. There are no other gods joining the godhead, no “open” trinity. It is utterly closed. There is, and always will be, and always has been, just one God:
Isa_43:10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
None formed before, none formed after.
The UCG’s view, therefore, is a thinly veiled polytheism, very similar to the Mormon concept which argues that they themselves are monotheistic, because there is one Godhead, but that the Father literally had sex with a goddess wife and produced the Son. They make the same argument against “strict monotheism,” and veil it with the same concept of strict devotion to just one God, but not that there are not any other gods.
Read the first 5 books of the bible. You’ll see that that god is addressed in 3 manners. Lord, Lord God, God.
Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. Is that the one you mean?
http://tinyurl.com/mindofthemaker
The most brilliant book ever written about the Trinity. And funny!
DouglasKC wrote:
This could be a controversial thread. Let’s remember to act in a Christian manner and exhibit the fruit of the holy spirit to those who might be reading this.
I respond with:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
**These men—Basil, bishop of Caesarea, his brother Gregory, bishop of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus—were all “trained in Greek philosophy” (Armstrong, p. 113), which no doubt affected their outlook and beliefs (see “Greek Philosophy’s Influence on the Trinity Doctrine,” beginning on page 14).**
All Catholic Saints and one a Doctor/Teacher of the Church.
http://www.doctorsofthecatholicchurch.com/
Otherwise, it is there for all to see. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit
Matthew 3: 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
2 Peter 1:16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain. 19 And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.