Charlotte-born doctor talks about time in heaven

Last Friday night (March 22), March Madness was in its televised glory. And Taylor Swift was singing and strumming at Time Warner Cable Arena.

Not just any doctor. Sitting on stage, answering questions from the Rev. Chip Edens, the church’s rector, was Dr. Eben Alexander. He’s a Charlotte native who wrote “Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon’s Journey into the Afterlife.” His book is such a mega-seller that he has talked to Oprah – and Universal Pictures won a bidding war to turn it into a (probably 3-D) movie.

Read more here: http://funkonfaith.blogspot.com/2013/03/charlotte-born-doctor-talks-about-time.html#storylink=cpy

I've skimmed over his book and believe this is for real. His natural skepticism and demeanor of a physician not given to flights of fancy add to the authenticity I think

But there's a difference between what one may experience and how one interprets it. Remember in the Book of Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar was the one who had the dream, but he had no clue what it meant and needed Daniel to interpret for him.

Looks to me like this guy has not/needs to, use the Bible and other Biblically-grounded/mature Christians to help him understand what happened to him.

“Well then that would also include the above statement,which makes the statement itself a hallucination unique to your brain.”

Your own perception of giving/receiving a statement is unique to your brain, not the meaning you are trying to convey. Society teaches us methods of interaction from birth- language, reason, images, etc.

We learn these methods to have a common system of interaction. For example, you are taught how to write/read the word “apple” and link it to an image/object. Your perception of “apple” always stays constant and the method you use to express “apple” remains constant. However, when you express “apple” to another brain or another brain sees an “apple”, that brain's internal perception is entirely different from yours. You don't realize it because everyone is taught to express their perception in a standardized way.

You can also think about it in terms of colors. We are taught which color is which from a young age but there is no way to know how each brain perceives color. Your internal perception of “red” may be entirely different from another brain's perception. And when the other brain goes to express “red” to you with a paintbrush, it picks that common color that you both were taught to associate as “red”.

Even though we have a common system of interaction that makes it seem like we see reality the same way, the internal perception of that reality is entirely different for each person. It doesn't make a difference for most things we encounter every day but when you start exploring “outside the box”, those differences in perception mean everything.

It doesn't make a difference for most things we encounter every day but when you start exploring “outside the box”, those differences in perception mean everything.

Not really. We can evaluate these so called "outside the box" experiences, compare and contrast them, and then draw conclusions about them. Firstly, if nobody ever reported these experiences then there would be no phenomenon called "near death experiences." If only a few people had them and they were extremely rare, and especially if each reported experience was not anything like the others, then they could be simply dismissed as hallucinations, illusion, reaction to lack of oxygen, etc.

But millions of people have them, and they are a phenomenon that is commanding attention in large part because they are so similar in important aspects across boundaries of culture, age, gender, and time, and most importantly, across the conditions of each experience. Some experiencers truly are in a state of being brain and heart dead, others simply close to it, and others only in a state being threatened with death. There all also many that can replicate the out of body portion of the experience simply through meditation, breathing exercises etc.

The out of body aspects of near death experiences, and the ability to leave the area, and accurately report on things that could not have been viewed while lying unconscious on the operating table, is one of the most compelling arguments in favor of the idea the consciousness can exist outside the body. You say this can be replicated with DMT. Are you saying the DMT allows the soul (ego consciousness) to leave the body? If so, then you have not done anything to debunk the afterlife, you have only shown the means by a soul might extricate itself from the body.

But it appears you do not believe in the existence of a soul that leaves the body after death and continues on in another existence. If that is the case, then how does the DMT give people knowledge that they could not have obtained while lying on the operating table?

You sound like a Muslim when you say stuff like,” it should be taken with a grain of salt and measured by the one, divinely-revealed and authoritative source we have - the Holy Bible.”

I'm not a Muslim, I am a Christian. But just for the sake of argument, let's pretend I am one. If someone came and preached at my local mosque, invited by my Imam, and he claimed he died and visited Paradise with Mohammad by his side before he came back to life again, should I measure what he claims he saw and learned there by what the Koran says? The Koran IS considered Islam's sacred writings. If he said that Mohammad introduced him to Jesus Christ and told him that Jesus WAS the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity and that faith in Jesus Christ was the only way someone could go to Paradise when they died, would it be unreasonable for other Muslims to question whether or not this guy's testimony was really the truth? Would they be sounding like a "Christian" because they took what he said with a grain of salt? I realize this is only a hypothetical seeing as many Muslims wouldn't stand for someone to preach like an "infidel" in their mosque - at least not for very long.

It really doesn't matter what "version" of the Bible Christians use to determine what is or isn't taught there, it IS divinely-inspired revelation and we have the right and obligation to be able to discern truth from error. What you call mere "manners and details of the collection" are what makes up the rule of faith for a Christian. If someone claims to BE a Christian and they speak about an experience they had that they expect others will accept, then it's perfectly reasonable to use the word of God to decide if what the person claims is based on truth or not. There IS a spirit world out there and deception is their main focus. In order to not fall into deception, the hearers should have some kind of objective authority by which to judge. That is why we have the Bible - so that we can know all that God desires we know about Him and His plan for mankind.

I find non Christians have a difficult time with believing that God actually does exist and is alive right now. God does communicate with those who are with him regularly. We do not have to die to speak with God or indeed to hear from Him.

I agree. I think a good way to look at it is the unbelievers need to see to believe (seeing is believing, the saying goes). But Christians know that it is the other way around, believing is seeing. In the book of Hebrews 11:6, the writer says that:

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

God rewards those who come to Him in faith, not needing to see first before believing in Him. It is only then that God rewards that faith with more than enough evidence to satisfy those who diligently seek Him. I KNOW that it is true - I have seen way too much proof to ever be able to turn my back on God or cast away my faith.

"...God rewards that faith with more than enough evidence to satisfy those who diligently seek Him..."

Amen bb!

"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:10,11)

Dear varyouga,

The problem with your assertions is they require no contemplation. In other words, while you pretend to know where thought comes from and therefore that it can be manipulated...you don’t and you cannot.

The fact that you can put a sentence together at all is evidence of God and His creation. Chemicals...electricity...etc. cannot explain it because they are simply the results of thoughts not the beginning.

I have both hallucinated on psychedlic drugs and had a NDE...they are not the same thing in any sense of the word.

Additionally, if you read about the nuero-surgeons testimony...he was brain dead, there was zero brain wave activity going on while he had his experience.

I know in my own experience I “saw” music while tripping on LSD but that is nothing like the reality of NDE or the Holy Spirit. If you really think what you wrote, you should be contemplating your entire history and existence as being some form of hallucination, because it would be.

Ok, I see I've hit a nerve. If you wish to hold to the book as true, ok, your choice, I won't knock you on this Easter Tuesday. Just dwell on the people with wings -- we don't see that in the Bible described about angels but about seraphim and cherubim. It seems like the boy was talking pop images, not reality. Even worse, if you read the book, the pattern is similar -- Colton says something, father gasps and then remembers something and then the boy walks away.

It seems contrived to me, but evidently does not to you -- so if you hold to it as true revelation, I won't knock you and will desist from pointing out my own reservations about the book.

Au contraire! It seems that I have hit a nerve. I've not read the book and was only inquiring as to what about it that you considered did not "gel" with Scripture. Perhaps you haven't actually read the book yourself and you are only taking stabs at it because it wasn't written as an experience by a Catholic "saint"? I have read some of what these people have purported seeing in dreams and visions, maybe even NDE, and I can say I find some of what they claim to not be anywhere close to what I think is Scriptural.

That angels have "wings" is, in fact, something that could be seen from Scripture. God even uses allegory to describe Himself as covering us with His wings. The Bible doesn't give an exhaustive list of what is or isn't in heaven nor what believers can expect to see once they get there. I'm sure the Apostle John had trouble finding the right words to describe what he was permitted to see when he was inspired to write Revelation.

So, again, if you are that interested in panning a particular kid's retelling of what he claims he saw while deathly sick, go ahead. Everyone has a right to their own opinions. I was simply curious about what you found so offensive and contradictory to the Bible, that's all. I only hold to the Holy Scriptures as true Divine revelation, not what someone claims they saw, heard, experienced or imagined. The subject of this thread was about a doctor retelling what he learned and experienced while clinically dead. Where he touches on areas that contradict Scripture, I have to reject because I know God does not contradict himself. Happy post-Easter Tuesday to you, too.

I jump to conclusions? Better get that mirror cleaned, pal.

It seems, yet again, that you have either missed the point or prefer conflict over conversation. It's hard to tell with you sometimes. The gist of the thread, and the point of talking about other people's recounting of their near death experiences (NDE) is that, when they say things that conflict with tenets of the faith tradition they are claiming to hold, taking what they say at face value is not a wise thing to do and that, as Christians, we have a resource for determining what those major tenets are by which to measure statements.

Whenever someone’s experience confirms in what could be called a miraculous way those things we Christians believe about God, it adds to our faith in a way that brings assurance - though they certainly should not stand as the only way we can know what we believe. When someone speaks in church about how God touched their life in a supernatural way, giving glory to God, it helps to EDIFY those who hear it. Part of the reason I think we are encouraged to meet together and not forsake it is so that we can share with each other in the trials and triumphs of living our faith. It's a concept that has always been a part of Christianity.

Cronos: If you wish to hold to the book as true, ok, your choice, I won't knock you on this Easter Tuesday.

It seems contrived to me, but evidently does not to you -- so if you hold to it as true revelation, I won't knock you and will desist from pointing out my own reservations about the book.
Boatbums: Perhaps you haven't actually read the book yourself and you are only taking stabs at it because it wasn't written as an experience by...
Boatbums: "I jump to conclusions? Better get that mirror cleaned, pal."

Tsk, tsk, Bb -- read your statements above in contrast to mine. Stop jumping to conclusions, you'll sprain your hip

It is feasible, as it also is recorded in Scripture.

2Co 12:1-13
(1) It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
(2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
(3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
(4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
(5) Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
(6) For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
(7) And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
(8) For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
(9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
(10) Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
(11) I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
(12) Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
(13) For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

There also is discernment in the meanings of:
Resurrection,
Resuscitation, and
Reincarnation.

The first 2 are in Scripture, but the last is not.

The best advice I have seen regarding spiritual experience is to test it by something veritable.

What is more veritable than the personal experience?

The MEMRA, the Word of God.

That is one reason for studying Scripture. By studying Scripture while in fellowship with God, we are in the right place, at the right time, doing the right thing, in the right manner, allowing Him to sanctify us in the graceful, just, and right manner He has Planned.

Let God provide.

If God provided the spiritual experience, He will edify us in His fashion by His means, which to not contradict themselves.

If our spiritual experience is contradicted by what He provides us in His Word, it glorifies Him to have faith in His Word before our experience. If they reinforce one another, then it also glorifies Him to have faith in His Word.

Actually Paul did understand it. He didn’t understand it, though, by academics, but by what God provided.

Paul had been given the spiritual gift of Apostleship. This means he knew from God providing him that knowledge, exactly what God’s Plan of salvation provided.

You are correct that it might not have occurred instantly, as our soul is scarred by the old sin nature, and God the Holy Spirit slowly sanctifies us. On the other hand, I also can testify that He is able to teach us directly and instantly. I have seen words in Hebrew in spiritual dreams, which I didn’t even know the Hebrew alphabet, but immediately understood the word’s meaning imparted to me. Upon waking, I confirmed the definition with the word from the dream by academic search.

I then find it more veritable to study His Word, for proper understanding of the dream, but still give all glory to God.

Whenever someone’s experience confirms in what could be called a miraculous way those things we Christians believe about God, it adds to our faith in a way that brings assurance

Good for you to hold to that. I agree with reservations for the word "experience" -- revelations, messages from God I am sceptical about, whether it be Catholic or non-Catholic and if you have noticed I do not dwell on these whether it is Lourdes or some other.

Day-trips to heaven I am very sceptical about -- whoever that might be. As something like Dante La Commedia fine to read, but I'm not going to dwell on it.

As I said above -- if you want to believe it, fine, your choice

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