Greek Orthodox patriarch stages first visit to pope's inaugural Mass in 1,000 years

Hürriyet Daily News ^ | March 19, 2013

[NYer]

Fener Greek Patriarch Bartholomew, the spiritual leader of the Orthodox world, attended the installation Mass for Pope Francis in Rome on Tuesday, March 19, for the first time since the Great Schism in 1054.

Acting Patriarch Archbishop Aram Ateşyan from the Armenian Patriarchate of Turkey also presented at the Vatican, with a delegation of clergymen. Turkish Deputy Prime Minister Bekir Bozdağ was also expected to attend the ceremony.

“The alienation of old times has disappeared. As two brother churches, we are getting closer each day. We also have a theological dialogue, and the position of the pope in the Christian world is at the center of this dialogue,” Bartholomew said in a televised interview before he left Turkey yesterday.

Fener Greek Patriarchate press secretary Father Dositheos Anagnostopulos told the Hürriyet Daily News, “The first meeting [between the East and West Churches] was in 1054. Nearly 1,000 years have passed since then.”

Asked whether the meeting would contribute to the relationship between the two churches, Anagnostopulos said, “Of course, it has symbolic importance in this regard.”

According to Anagnostopulos, Ioannis Zizioulas, metropolitan of Pergamon and co-president of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church; Tarassiocs, Orthodox Metropolitan of Argentina; and Gennadios, Orthodox metropolitan of Italy, accompanied the patriarch.

Dr. Lütfü Özşahin, a historian specializing in the history of religions, said the meeting was crucial in many aspects. Özşahin recalled that the Second Vatican Council, which was organized as a first attempt to create dialogue between the two churches, took place in 1965.

“[The meeting] also has a political dimension. Keep in mind that even though it is not officially mentioned, the EU is a holy alliance of Christians, while the Fener Greek patriarch is the spiritual leader of the Orthodox world. Whether Turkey accepts it or not, the Fener Greek Patriarchate is ecumenical, thus it has a primary importance for Orthodoxies,” Özşahin said. Turkey does not currently recognize the ecumenical status of the Fener Greek Patriarchate.

 “Greeks, Serbians, Georgians and Armenians have independent churches, which means the Fener Greek patriarch cannot represent the whole Orthodox world in every aspect,” Özşahin said, adding that the Russian Orthodox Church, which has had conflicts with the Fener Greek Patriarchate for centuries, is a good illustration of this.

 “This meeting also demonstrates the importance the pope gives to the Islamic world. After resolving the issues between Christians, the new pope might take action to engage in dialogue with the Islamic world,” Özşahin said.

Ateşyan said he welcomed the move. “The meeting is important in terms of resolving the problems between churches and sects, and improving relations between the Eastern and Western Churches.”

Professor İlber Ortaylı, a historian, on the other hand, felt it was misguided to read such far-reaching significance into the meeting. “They are going to congratulate [Pope Francis’ installation]; it shouldn’t be exaggerated.”

Meanwhile Turkey’s ambassador to the Vatican, Kenan Gürsoy, said they had observed a high degree of respect toward Bartholomew.

When asked for his views on the meeting, Gürsoy said it would be more appropriate to leave the comments to historians and experts on the subject.

[knarf]

"Who willed for Simon to be the spokesman of God's truth."

Where did THAT come from ?

[Mrs. Don-o]

Jesus said that Simon did not get this knowledge from flesh and blood, but from His Father in heaven. Thus Simon Peter spoke the truth he was given by the Father.

[knarf]

As is given to all whom believe (the job of the Holy Spirit)

[terycarl]

He really isn’t the spiritual leader of the Orthodox world. The first sentence creates more misunderstanding than understanding

all authority within the Christian religion lies with the Pope...Christ founded one church, gave her authority to teach and interpret scripture....she has done so for about 2013 years There was a schism and there was a revolt, neither of which changed the original authority of the church. Christianity, all Christianity, has one leader, the vicar of Christ on Earth....the Pope.

[BlueDragon]

Flesh and blood did not reveal that to Simon, but the Father in Heaven, Who willed for Simon to be the spokesman of God's truth.

Flesh and blood did not reveal that same thing (and more) that was revealed to Paul, either, whom was as much a spokesman for God's truth as was Peter. Paul was not subordinate. He did not learn what he knew, at the feet of other Apostles.

[Rashputin]

By the by, in case anyone doesn't know, Simon is the Aramaic word for "a grain of sand", so "a grain of sand" became, "Rock".

And yet, people try to pretend there's nothing significant about Christ changing Simon's name to Peter even though they place a great deal of importance on any other case of God giving someone a new name. That's without a doubt one of the many beam in the collective eye of the anti-Catholic crowd.

I really like the fact that Christ mentions that we should build on Rock and not Sand after renaming Simon and I think people ignore that fact mostly due to the strong delusion that blinds them.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Was "more" revealed to Peter than to Paul? Or was what Paul taught was derived from Peter? Not at all. I didn’t say that.

Paul said that through Jesus Christ our Lord, he "received grace and apostleship," just as had the Twelve. Peter himself confirmed this (Galatians 2; 2 Peter 3).

Paul's says God's household, the Church, is "built on the foundation of the apostles, with Christ the chief cornerstone. Peter says that "commands are given by our Lord and Savior through the apostles."

Here's a question: are all believers apostles? Paul wrote, "God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues," and then asks, "Are all Apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?"

The answer is "No." There are diverse gifts given to diverse people, and "apostleship," while "first," was one gift, but not given to all.

The gift of the Spirit was and is given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands (Acts 8); it was and is likewise being transmitted to a new generation of successors by the laying on of hands: to Timothy (2 Timothy 1), Titus, those who were appointed by the Apostles (not self-appointed; not popularly elected, but appointed by the Apostles) to plant local churches and to teach and govern them with authority.

False prophecy also abounded. Paul says there are many "false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ."

So, another question: how does one tell one from the other? Paul goes on, "I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles."

So we have these truths: that those who have the gift of apostleship are the foundation of the Church; that Christ gives commands through the apostles; that true apostles are accompanied by signs and miracles; that they appoint new apostles by the laying on of hands.

Paul had the commission of apostle to the Gentiles, Peter to the Jews. Peter also had the “keys,” a Biblical sign of office for an official who should rule in his Lord’s household until He returns. Because Peter loved the Lord more than the rest (John 21:15), he is given, more than the rest, a share the Good Shepherd's ministry of “feeding the lambs and the sheep,_ a shepherd of shepherds --- and, after he recovers from his stumble, he is appointed the ministry of “strengthening (or confirming) the brethren” (Luke 22:32).

It is Peter who confirms that Paul’s apostleship is correct (Galatians 2, and 2 Peter 3). This is true even though Paul on one key point has to correct Peter! Paul is not correcting Peter’s doctrine, --- Peter knew, directly via a vision from the Lord (Acts 10) that there was no distinction between eating “clean”: and “unclean” animals --- but Paul corrected Peter for his behavior, his waffling, his cowardice, for not acting in accord with what had been directly revealed to him by the Holy Spirit.

Thus we have the ministry of the Apostles, which continues to this day. Christ has not left us orphans.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"As is given to all whom believe (the job of the Holy Spirit)"

Amen to that. The Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, John the Baptist, Mary, John the Evangelist, Peter: we all receive different gifts from the same Spirit.

But are all apostles? The answer is "No." There are diverse gifts to diverse people, all in ivin ontact ith each otherand working together as one Body. ("If they were all one part, where would the body be?" 1 Corinthians 12). I would rather rely on the apostles, and on those who received the Spirit from them by the laying on of hands, than on anyone else's oinions, including mine.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Hey, Rashputin, that would be neat, but I understand that Simon (Shimon) comes from the same Hebrew root word as the name of the prayer "Shema": ("Hear O Israel..." )The root means to hear and obey, so "Simon" is a "hearer and obeyer."

I don't know how you'd derive "grain of sand."

But etymology is tricky, puns in to languages are trickier still (the Bible is just full of puns, it;s amazing )--- and I'm no scholar.

Kēphâs --- Κηφᾶς --- a Greek transliteration of the original Aramaic word, definitely means "rock," and not any old rock, but a building block hewn and ready for construction of an edifice or monument..

[Rashputin]

I based my strange piles of electronic notes, that's initially based on lectures by both Raymond de Souza and Fr. John A Hardon, SJ, and one of the two expanded on the Greek being based on Hebrew the roots of the Hebrew words, then back to how the word was used in Aramaic, and the way it is pronounced or something. I'd have to dig through a lot of MP3 files to find it but I'll make a note to expand on what they say if I can find that information.

I'll put what you say in the mental coffee grinder with everything else, dig around and see what comes up. I'd especially like to find the lecture where it's expanded on a good bit because that's what impressed me the most due to it involving Hebrew root words and such as well as the way the name sounded like another or something like that. Thanks, this will get me digging back through old lectures I haven't heard in a while if nothing else.

I may have several links around so I'll look see if I can find the stuff that impressed me the most. I do recall reading roughly what you're saying as well as other things that disagreed, but there was something that convinced me in the end and I"ll see if I can find that. The only link I kept and can find quickly is to this (reproduced below) and other reading that site a good bit I don't know why that's the one I can find quickly.

_____________________________________________________________ Re: Does the name "Simon" mean "shifting sand"?

I've heard this many times, and upon researching it, I too was disappointed when I discovered that Simon does not mean "shifting sand", however the teaching is true when you discover what his name means is based on his earthly father's name, Jonah. Simon bar Jonah (Simon son of Jonah). The name Jonah has etymological roots that can indeed mean mud or wet sand or shifting sand. If you do a casual search, you'll find Jonah means "dove", but search on etymological roots of Jonah's Hebrew name meaning and you'll find such as the following:

"First there is root (ywn). It yields the masculine noun (ywn), meaning mire, which is wet or soft mud (Psalm 40:3, 69:3)."

So it could be implied that Peter's original name meant, "He who hears" but is founded on "shifting sand" in the flesh based on his sin nature inherited from his earthly father, however, now that He has made His profession of faith, He is now founded on The Rock, His Heavenly Father and His Lord Jesus Christ, and as such is now a rock himself, not merely someone who casually hears, but effectually does.

So, if a little digging is done, his name does really imply someone who hears but is like a reed that is just blowing in the wind or has no firm foundation because he's here and there.

[BlueDragon]

I knew you'd crank up the 'ol RC PR spin machine. I'm not buying the various RC tainted conclusions & claims tucked in here & there though. I never will.

Thus we have the ministry of the Apostles, which continues to this day.

Apostles, as in mulitiple. Not a singular Peter as Apostle. For all the good the medieval RC church did with these "keys" they claimed to be sole heirs of, it surprising they didn't lose more of their bishopric than they eventually did. That's the real story.

Christ has not left us orphans.

I never said He did.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"I knew you'd crank up the 'ol RC PR spin machine."

Disaapointing. I abstain from discussions that turn to personal insult. Goodbye.

[BlueDragon]

Personal insult? Because I didn't try to go into detail of how the RCC's take on Peter's role (which they claim sole or chief inheritance of), chosing instead (this time) to simply cast scorn upon the argument itself? I know the twists and turns such arguments frequently take.

I just wanted to briefly point towards the same weakness of the RC argument that have existed from the beginnings of that time when the Latin church first began to heap upon themselves claims of authority so extensively unbridled...it eventually led them to sanction the murder of significant numbers of individuals.

But dearie, you gave me the same 'ol party line, just all dolled up with other distractions. I must say you are quite skillful with it.

Have you any idea of how often those whom oppose that party line I'm referring to are rudely insulted on this forum, much more directly and personally than by default, you yourself took offense?

Perhaps you do know.

But that's still not enough to allow myself to be led down the same primrose paths you may have traveled yourself. I see it for what it is --- a highly polished twisted perversion of the Gospel. I simply won't go.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"I knew you'd crank up the 'ol RC PR spin machine."

I'm the 'you' in that statement. You have explicitly told me that your approach to my time, care, and thought is to "simply cast scorn" on them.

I don't say that, I, personally, deserve better. But I do know what to do when the gift of my best is trashcanned.

Peace be with you. Goodbye.

[BlueDragon]

The "gift of your best" is STILL the same party line. You can chose to take offense, if that's what suits you.

I won't be swayed by emotionalism, or be led along a path for sake of politeness, when I already know where it will all lead.

But congratulations on fully turning turtle in fashion complex enough to blind one to the simple fact that God is able to make Apostles of whomsoever He may himself chose, much as He did so with Saul whom became known as Paul.

Full dependence upon such principles as the laying on of hands, though that not be without much strength and validity, is a both a theological and spiritual mistake, when adhered to, too completely. Which Roman Catholicism has long insisted upon doing...and only now seems to be coming to grips with, as re-approachment towards other Christians is more fully sought.

Rome would prefer all others to just roll over and accept her terms, for it is important to her, to either never admit error, or come up with some way to explain away an evidential error arising, and is quite good at always seeking each and every way possible to fulfill that quest.

The "party line" excels at distracting all from certain fundamental truths which don't fit as well as may be desired. That you are repeating those lines, is not MY problem!

[Mount Athos]

The Orthodox learned the true spirit behind those words of yours during the 4th crusade.

[Salvation]

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[Cronos]

the book of the Apocalypse talks of the one world religion — that is closer to the worship of Mammon or Islam.