Pope: Everyone, Even Atheists, Want to See the Face of God

That is not true. If men wanted to see God, they would choose Him here and now. The fact that they reject Him shows that they do NOT want to meet Him.

Revelation 6:15-17 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Answer me this. If man doesn’t have free will then what are we say about these passages:

Luke 10:16 He that hears you hears me; and he that rejects you rejects me; and he that rejects me rejects him that sent me.

Jeremiah 21:8-9 And unto this people thou shalt say, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death. He that abideth in this city shall die by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence: but he that goeth out, and falleth to the Chaldeans that besiege you, he shall live, and his life shall be unto him for a prey.

Tell me, if man were evil, why would man always seek the good or intrinsicly know to seek the good?

IS MAN BASICALLY EVIL?

WHERE THE BIBLE SAYS NO:

Gen 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

Gen 1:31
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.

Gen 6:9
These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God.

Gen 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked!

Job 1:8
And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”

Jer 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Psalm 139:13-15
For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Proverbs 11:4-5
Riches do not profit in the day of wrath, but righteousness delivers from death.
The righteousness of the blameless keeps his way straight, but the wicked falls by his own wickedness.

Proverbs 12:2
A good man obtains favor from the Lord, but a man of evil devices he condemns.

Proverbs 12:5
The thoughts of the righteous are just; the counsels of the wicked are treacherous.

Matt 12:35
The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. (Also see Luke 6:45)

Luke 1:6 (ref. to Zacahariah & Elizabeth)
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Luke 23:50
Now there was a man named Joseph from the Jewish town of Arimathea. He was a member of the council, a good and righteous man,

Mark 6:20
for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man,

Acts 7:20
At this time Moses was born, and was beautiful before God.

Acts 11:24 (ref. to Barnabas)
for he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith.

1 Tim 4:4
For everything created by God is good,

WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT MAN IS BASICALLY EVIL?

The proposition that man is basically evil is normally defended by quoting the following verses:

Romans 3:9-12
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one.”

Romans 3:22-23
For there is no distinction; since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 11:32
For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

The book of Romans as quoted above is the chief source for defending the idea that man is basically evil. Such an interpretation of these verses is clearly problematic for the following reasons:

1. In Romans 3:9-12, Paul says that all are under the power of sin. This is a reference to the “Fall” and the burden of original sin. Paul is speaking of Jews and gentiles as equal in their damaged state of inheritance, and that the Jews need grace and redemption just as much as the gentiles. All of mankind needs redemption, and man is prone to sin, but this fact does not mean that man is basically evil.

2. In Romans 3:9-12, Paul is quoting from Psalm 14:1-5. Paul makes reference to the Psalm by saying, “as it is written,” and he would not have made that remark or quoted so much of the passage word for word, if he did not intend for us to look to the psalm in order to place his own statements within the Old Testament context. The context of Psalm 14 is made clear in the first verse which states, “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none that does good.” Then in verse four and five the psalm reads, “Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call upon the Lord? There they shall be in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous.” Psalm 14 clearly distinguishes between the evil doers (i.e. the fool that says there is no God) and “my people”….”the generation of the righteous.” This is in harmony with all of the above scriptures that state that man is basically good.

3. Romans 3:22-23 and Romans 11:32 merely reiterate what Paul speaks of in reference to Psalm 14. While these verses clearly show that men are under the burden of original sin and that men commit personal sin, they do not state either explicitly or implicitly that man is basically evil.

4. Scripture does not contradict itself. If the Book of Romans or any other book of scripture actually indicated that man was basically evil, then those passages would “clearly” and “directly” contradict Genesis 1:26, Genesis 1:31, Psalm 139:13-15, Proverbs 12:2, Matt 12:35, Luke 1:6, Luke 23:50, Mark 6:20, Acts 7:20, and 1 Tim 4:4.

I thought you can’t see the face of God and live?

God is everywhere, we just need the eyes to see. Everything is God - it cannot be otherwise. That's what "infinite" means. People who don't grasp this are like people who look at all of the jewelry in a store and classify it by it's shape and purpose and design, rather than the single fact that it's all made out of gold. God is like the gold. God is what Creation is made out of - it can't be otherwise. before Creation, there was only God. So Creation was made "out of" God. Creation is God "being" Creation.

Jesus could look straight at that and see God in everything, and everyone, everywhere. For Jesus, in a sense, there was no Creation - there was just God. So looking at Jesus was "seeing God," since Jesus recognized no difference betweeen Himself and God.

In a sense, therefore, all spirituality is to regain that vision of God. On the other hand, that visionis not seen with physical eyes, and these words are merely metaphor for an experience so profound that the former person ceases to exist who has it, and a new person is born from the vision. Nevertheless, while we change through our perception of God, God does not change through our perception of God. And neither does God's infinity change due to our experience of it, or our lack of experience of it.

The pope himself has posted a rebuttal? Interesting.

If you wish to dialogue about these passages I can take only a few a time. But, here goes...

"Answer me this. If man doesn’t have free will then what are we say about these passages:

Luke 10:16

If you would read this passage directly, that is without predjudice, you would notice that it is simply a statement of fact (much like John 3:16). It is not an offer, nor is it claiming man is free from God's management. Jesus is simply saying that if certain folks cannot/will not hear the seventy, they are rejecting Jesus.

It is entirely unwarranted for you to conclude, "Therefore man is completely free to choose or reject Jesus based on this passage." It simply does not say this.

The very same thing occurs in Jeremiah, Joshua, Isaiah, and all the other prophets. Just because God says, "Now choose to follow me!", does not mean they can. Look at Acts 15:6ff where Peter makes it crystal clear that no Jew had ever followed the Law, nor had they been able to. We need, he says, grace to bring us into fellowship with God.

"IS MAN BASICALLY EVIL?"

"WHERE THE BIBLE SAYS NO:

"Gen 1:26,31"

My FRiend, if all was "good" in the sense that you mean, then Satan was a regular, righteous being since he was in creation along with man. At the moment of creation of the physical universe, there was at least one-third of all angelic beings in revolt against God with Lucifer (Satan) leading the charge. Man was likely created with a lustful, evil nature just waiting to display his tendencies for rebellion in league with Satan. Notice James 1 says that it is lust which gives birth to sin, and sin, death.

The creation was "good" because it was the perfect setting to display God's mercy being poured out on an undeserving mankind with the ultimate example being His Son's willing sacrifice. Everything was set to display grace.

Job? There are absolutely no remarks about Job having been born righteous or having a righteousness attributed to him, alone. That he followed God as an adult gives no information about God's work on him up to that point. And, please read just how sinful Job was during his accusations of God. God roared from the skies about Job's arrogance and ignorance. Job slaps his hand over his mouth when he realizes his error (40:4). Job may have been the best guy in the world, but he was evil by nature and worthy of death like all others. Otherwise, are you saying some people deserve heaven without any input from God? Now that is heresy (check Pelagius).

And, your treatment of Rom. 3 is self-contradictory. Either all men need redemption, or not all men are evil. You cannot have it both ways. If all men need redemption, then there are no men who are simply "prone" to evil...all must be evil and needing redemption. If you hold that some, while prone, are not actually evil, then that too is heresy. The need for redemption comes from being evil.

This is the condemnation laid at all men's feet in Rom. 3. Read it again. Paul is saying all men are evil.

"There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one." and so on.

But, the original point your "pope" made was that all men seek God, even the athiest. This, along with most of your claims, is untrue according to the Scriptures. More to come.

"I thought you can’t see the face of God and live?"

Agreed. At least no man has seen God the Father (John 1:18). Does this mean that the One who confronted Moses at the rock, perhaps the One who wrestled with Jacob, and other such appearances was really Jesus, the Son, pre-incarnate? Just wondering.

Your posts indicate you don’t believe you have free will.

If so... well, that’s your choice.

:)

All men are born to seek God.

If all men were born to seek God, one has to wonder why Adam didn't seek God's help about Eve. I am reminded of the following case where God pointed this out:

Jdg 10:11 And the LORD said to the people of Israel, "Did I not save you from the Egyptians and from the Amorites, from the Ammonites and from the Philistines?

Jdg 10:12 The Sidonians also, and the Amalekites and the Maonites oppressed you, and you cried out to me, and I saved you out of their hand.

Jdg 10:13 Yet you have forsaken me and served other gods; therefore I will save you no more.

Jdg 10:14 Go and cry out to the gods whom you have chosen; let them save you in the time of your distress."

Jdg 10:15 And the people of Israel said to the LORD, "We have sinned; do to us whatever seems good to you. Only please deliver us this day."

The people of Israel would only cry out to God when they were in trouble. When everything was going swell then they were happy worshipping other gods. BTW-this is not unlike today.

This is "free will" in action. (not that there is such a thing)

Vultus Christi

Benedict XVI: The Pope of the Face of God

By

Father Mark

on January 16, 2013 4:53 PM |

Here is the text of the Holy Father's General Audience of Wednesday, 16 January 2013. Again, he speaks to us of the Face of God. As the pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI unfolds, it becomes more and radiant in the splendour of the Divine Countenance.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

God Makes Himself Known

The Second Vatican Council, in its Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation Dei Verbum, says that the intimate truth of the revelation of God shines for us "in Christ, who is both the mediator and the fullness of all revelation"(no. 2). The Old Testament tells us how God, after the creation, despite original sin, despite man's arrogance in wanting to take the place of his Creator, again offers the possibility of his friendship, especially through the covenant with Abraham and the journey of a small nation, that of Israel, whom he chooses not according to the criteria of earthly power, but simply out of love. It is a choice that remains a mystery and reveals God's style, who calls some not to exclude others, but so that those called will act as bridge leading to Him: election is always an election for the other. In the history of the people of Israel we can retrace the stages of a long journey in which God makes himself known, reveals himself, enters into history with words and actions. For this work He uses mediators, such as Moses, the Prophets, the Judges, who communicate his will to the people, they remind them of the need for fidelity to the covenant and keep alive the expectation of the full and definitive realization of the divine promises.

Jesus Reveals to us the Face of God

And it is precisely the fulfillment of these promises that we contemplated in Christmas: God's revelation reaches its peak, its fullness. In Jesus of Nazareth, God truly visits his people, he visits humanity in a way that exceeds all expectation: he sends his only begotten Son, who becomes man, God himself. Jesus does not simply tell us something about God, he does not simply talk about the Father, because he is God, and thus he reveals to us the face of God. In the Prologue of his Gospel, John writes: "No one has ever seen God: it is God the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known" (Jn 1:18).

God Has Shown His Face

I want to focus on this "revealing the face of God." In this regard, St. John, in his Gospel, relates to us a significant fact. Approaching the passion, Jesus reassures his disciples, inviting them not to be afraid and to have faith; then he initiates a dialogue with them in which he speaks of God the Father (cf. Jn 14:2-9). At one point, the apostle Philip asks Jesus, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied" (Jn 14:8). Philip is very practical and concrete: he says what we, too, want to say: "we want to see, show us the Father"; he asks to "see" the Father, to see his face. Jesus' answer is an answer not only for Philip, but also for us and leads us into the heart of the Christological faith of the Church; the Lord affirms: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (Jn 14:9). This expression contains a synthesis of the novelty of the New Testament, that novelty that appeared in the cave of Bethlehem: God can be seen, he has shown his face, he is visible in Jesus Christ.

God Turns His Face to Us

Throughout the Old Testament the theme of "seeking the face of God" is ever present, so that the Hebrew term panîm, which means "face", occurs no less than 400 times, 100 of which refer to God, it means to see the face of God. Yet the Jewish religion, by forbidding all images, since God cannot be depicted - as instead occurred among their neighbors with the worship of idols; therefore, with this prohibition of imagery, the Old Testament seems to totally exclude "seeing" from worship and piety. What does it mean then, for the pious Israelite, to seek the face of God, while recognizing that there can be no image of Him? The question is important: on the one hand, it is said that God cannot be reduced to an object, to a simple image, nor can anything be put in the place of God; on the other, however, it is affirmed that He has a face, that is, He is a "You" that can enter into a relationship, who isn't closed in his Heavens looking down upon humanity. God is certainly above all things, but he turns to us, hears us, sees and speaks, makes covenants, is capable of love. The history of salvation is history of God with humanity, it is the history of this relationship of God who progressively reveals himself to man, letting him see his face.

The Splendor of the Divine Face is the Source of Life

Right at the beginning of the year, on January 1, we heard in the liturgy the beautiful prayer of blessing over the people: "The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you. The Lord turn his face to you and give you peace" (Num. 6:24-26). The splendor of the divine face is the source of life, it is what allows us to see reality, and the light of his countenance is the guide to life. In the Old Testament there is a figure connected in a very special way to the theme of the "face of God": Moses, whom God chose to free the people from slavery in Egypt, to give them the Law of the covenant and to lead them to the Promised Land. Well, in chapter 33 of the Book of Exodus, it says that Moses had a close and confidential relationship with God: "The Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as one speaks with his friend" (v. 11). By virtue of this confidence, Moses asks God: "Show me your glory," and the Lord's answer is clear: "I will make all my goodness pass before you, and will proclaim before you the name ... But you cannot see my face, for no one shall see me and live ... Here is a place near me ... you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen "(vv. 18-23). On the one hand, then, there is the face to face dialogue as among friends, but on the other, there is the impossibility, in this life, of seeing the face of God, which remains hidden; the vision is limited. The Fathers say that these words, "you shall only see my back", mean: you can only follow Christ and in following you see from behind the mystery of God;God can be followed seeing his back.

The Face and Name of God

Something new happens, however, with the incarnation. The search for the face of God undergoes an unthinkable change, because now this face can be seen: that of Jesus, the Son of God who became man. In Him the path of God's revelation finds fulfillment, which began with the call of Abraham; He is the fullness of this revelation because he is the Son of God, he is both "the mediator and fullness of all revelation" (Dogmatic Constitution Dei Verbum, 2), and in Him the content of Revelation and the Revealer coincide. Jesus shows us the face of God and makes known to us the name of God. In the priestly prayer at the Last Supper, He says to the Father: "I have made your name known to those whom you gave me from the world ... I made your name known to them" (cf. Jn 17:6,26). The expression "name of God" means God as He who is present among men. To Moses at the burning bush, God had revealed his name, had made it possible to invoke him, had given a concrete sign of his "existence" among men. All this finds fulfillment and completeness in Jesus: He inaugurates a new way of God's presence in history, because he who sees Him, sees the Father, as he says to Philip (cf. Jn 14:9). Christianity - says Saint Bernard - is the "religion of the Word of God"; not, however, "a written and mute word, but of the incarnate and living Word" (Hom. super Missus Est, IV, 11: PL 183, 86B). In the Patristic and Medieval traditions, a special formula is used to express this reality: Jesus is the Verbum abbreviatum (cf. Rom 9:28, referring to Isaiah 10:23), he is the short, abbreviated and substantial Word of the Father, who has told us everything about Him. In Jesus the whole Word is present.

Jesus the Mediator

In Jesus even the mediation between God and man finds its fullness. In the Old Testament, there is a host of figures who have performed this task, particularly Moses, the deliverer, the guide, the "mediator" of the covenant, as also the New Testament defines him (cf. Gal 3:19; Acts 7:35, Jn 1:17). Jesus, true God and true man, is not simply one of the mediators between God and man, he is "the mediator" of the new and everlasting covenant (cf. Heb 8:6; 9:15, 12:24); "For there is one God", Paul says, "and one mediator between God and humankind, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim 2:5, Gal 3:19-20). In Him we see and meet the Father; in Him we can invoke God as "Abbà, Father"; in Him we are given salvation.

See the Face of God in the Face of Christ

The desire to know God truly, that is, to see the face of God, is in every man, even atheists. And we perhaps unwittingly have this desire to see simply who He is, what He is, who He is for us. But this desire is realized by following Christ, so we see his back and finally also see God as a friend, his face in the face of Christ.

The Eucharist is the Great School in Which We Learn to See the Face of God

The important thing is that we follow Christ not only when we are in need and when we find space for it in our daily affairs, but with our lives as such.The whole of life should be directed towards encountering Him, towards loving Him; and, in it, a central place must also be given to the love of one's neighbor, that love that, in the light of the Crucified One, enables us to recognize the face of Jesus in the poor, the weak, the suffering. This is only possible if the true face of Jesus has become familiar to us in listening to His Word, in interior dialogue, in entering into this Word in such a way as to really encounter him,and naturally in the Mystery of the Eucharist. In the Gospel of St. Luke there is the significant passage of the two disciples of Emmaus, who recognize Jesus in the breaking of the bread, thought after being prepared by the journey with Him, prepared by the invitation they made Him to remain with them, prepared by the dialogue that made their hearts burn; so, in the end, they see Jesus.For us, too, the Eucharist is the great school in which we learn to see the face of God, we enter into an intimate relationship with Him, and we learn at the same time to turn our gaze towards the final moment of history, when He will satisfy us with the light of his face. On earth we walk towards this fullness, awaiting the fulfillment of the Kingdom of God. Thank you.

[Zenit Translation by Peter Waymel]

Woody Allen: It’s not that I’m afraid of death, I just don’t want to be there when it happens.

“God is everywhere, we just need the eyes to see”. True. but “everything is God”. false. I believe that is called Pantheism if I'm not mistaken. Let me ask you, if God is everything, is he an idol? Is he a child molester? If answer is no, than God is not everything. If I missed your point by getting hung up on your first few sentences or misunderstood your meaning, maybe you could rephrase it.

I want to die in my sleep like my 80 year old Grandpa and not like the four screaming passengers in the car he was driving. ;o)

I want to die in my sleep, but just my luck the alarm clock will go off first! ;o)

good ones LOL

"Your posts indicate you don’t believe you have free will.
If so... well, that’s your choice.

:)

Cute...but scripted.

You have aptly pointed out some of the many passages reporting Israel’s failure/inability to follow/seek God. The entire OT culminates in the conclusion that all men are born lost and need God’s grace to make them alive from the dead. Thanks for the post.

Your posts indicate you don’t believe you have free will.

If so... well, that’s your choice.

:)

hehehehe!

“My FRiend, if all was ‘good’ in the sense that you mean, then Satan was a regular, righteous being since he was in creation along with man.”

You’re putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about Satan being good.

How so? If we don’t have free will, then I guess using that logic I might as well not make the choice to get up in the morning to go work.

Another thing too Dutchboy88,

Man can resist grace. He cannot fully accept grace on his own power. Man is free to reject God. Only with help can he turn toward God. Therefore, man’s freedom is limited with and by grace, man can love God. He can also resist grace. The seed heresy of Calvinism is irresistible grace. We were created by Love and for Love.

"You’re putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about Satan being good."

I certainly do not want to put words in your mouth; to do that is very unfair. So, correct me if I am wrong, but you cited the creation story wherein God pronounced everything, "...very good." (Gen. 1:31). From that you concluded man was therefore "good".

I commented that if you understood this phrase ("very good")to mean everything was holy (or not evil), then by default Satan's nature would have also had to be holy (or not evil) since he was present in creation. Do you follow my concern? If Satan was present, then not everything could be "good" the way you were using the term.

The term "good" is used in Gen. 1:31 to signal that everything was perfectly ready to display the drama about to unfold. Namely, the rebellion of man, the inability to find righteousness, the rise of the "special family" (Jews), their inability to obey, the advent of their Rescuer (Jesus the Messiah), the death/burial/resurrection/ascension of the Savior (now) of the world, the addition of the Gentiles, the end of times.