Posted on 12/22/2012 6:02:55 PM PST by Phinneous
...An article on the pagan origins of Christmas...
LOL, “quartodecimanism” had nothing at all to do with keeping the OT feasts and EVERYTHING to do with what day to celebrate Easter on.
it was a dispute among Catholics, who did not keep the 7th day Sabbath, nor the Jewish feast days.
nice try!
“There is no evidence in the Bible of an unbroken apostolic succession of faith”
better read your Bible a little more closely -
2 Timothy 2:1-2
you then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
those men who were entrusted taught other men, who taught other men, who taught other men and so on for 1,979 years.
these men also set the canon of Scripture you claim to follow and hand copied the Scriptures for 1,400 years before the printing press was invented.
Your opinion is at odds with even traditional church history on just about every point.
The Council of Laoedecia, convened in 362 AD, over 300 years after the death of Christ, imposed these rules on the traditional church:
Canon 37
It is not lawful to receive portions sent from the feasts of Jews or heretics, nor to feast together with them.
Canon 38
It is not lawful to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety.
What should be obvious is that if the church had to lay down the law on these matters then it stands to reason that these were pretty prevalent practices among Christians even 3 centuries after the death of Christ. In addition:
Canon 29
Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.
Same point....why outlaw it if wasn't being widely done?
And finally:
Canon 16
The Gospels are to be read on the Sabbath [i.e. Saturday], with the other Scriptures.
Note that this means that there were still some type of formal worship on the sabbath and Saturday, not Sunday, was still referred to as the sabbath. What was outlawed was resting on the sabbath, which of course was against the commandment of the Lord.
“Jew” covers all of the descent of Judah.
The Jews that hold to Torah, and Torah alone are the true seed that will be saved as explained by Paul in Romans ch 10. Those know that there is no oral Torah, and that only the unchanging written scriptures are from YHVH.
One of the key attributes of a true prophet is that they know that YHVH and his Torah change not. Takanot changes Torah, and the nature of YHVH.
BTW, we are actually near the end of the 6012th Biblical year.
Do you fear the curses of Deuteronomy 28 for the failure to earn the promises? That scripture has some harsh pronouncements.
it’s not my opinion, read the wikipedia article you yourself referenced.
Polycarp visited the Bishop of Rome ( the Anti-Christ to some, LOL! ) and basically agreed to disagree on what day to celebrate Easter.
you claim some people were still celebrating the OT feasts and keeping the Sabbath, fair enough, i am merely asking for proof. i know what the Catholic Council of Laoedecia said, can you provide names of anyone doing this and can they trace themselves to the Apostles?
no one i have ever asked this question to can provide any names, i thought you would be different. i guess not.
The office of apostle was not simply a teacher, or leader (Pastor/Bishop) but encompassed all of the gifts of the spirit in one person, the most important of which was the clear discernment of every spirit, and command over them.
There were only 12 apostles, as Revelation states; the office was not one that men could pass on.
There’s always baseball...
you think the doctrine of apostolic succession means there are more than 12 apostles or that anyone thinks there are apostles today?
it’s hard to not laugh like a clown at such thinking, much like Constantine was born on 12/25 and other such nonsense!!
look up “apostolic succession” to educate yourself.
Are you a Jew for J? My Spidey senses are tingling....
Anyhoo— You can quote Christian text all you want...it doesn’t change a thing for a Torah Jew, nor do your interpretations of Torah. I guess we’re done.
But I think yours were the best defense of December 25th... though it seems some others disagreed, no?
I think I posted a thread a while back to stir the pot, and I didn’t want to do it near Xmas... but you know that for Torah Jews Jesus was a heretic, right? That the commandments can’t be altered is true... for Jews, Jesus clearly did alter them. I won’t spend time debating a Christian on this...it’s pointless... suffice to say: www.noahide.org. Even Christians have objective commandments right from G-d. They’r great. Give it a try. And if your mother is a Jew, let me direct you to a fine Chabad house near you... best of luck.
“So you’re saying Jesus and the Apostles didn’t hide Easter eggs and look for them? That sorta ruins that after church ordeal a lot of churchs go through.”
more straw men arguement, no Church teaches that.
i thoght FR was a conservative site, why use the tactics of Obama and the left??
oh, i know why.
Which is the chief "Christian" holiday? Why, "Christmas," of course. Christmas means, simply, the "Mass of Christ." The Catholic Encyclopedia admits, "Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the church" (Vol. III, p. 724), and explains, "The well-known solar feast, however, of natalis invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date" (ibid., p. 727, emphasis mine).
History documents that the Roman Catholic Church did not settle upon the final date for the "Mass of Christ" as Christ's birthday until perhaps five centuries after Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.
Christmas is connected with purely pagan ceremonies: sun worship, ancient Roman festivals, and even more ancient Babylonian mysteries. You will find that holly wreaths, mistletoe, bulbs and orbs, trees, "Old St. Nick," and many other trappings of Christmas are utterly pagan in origin!
Yet, for all its paganism, Christmas is eagerly embraced by countless millions in the professing Christian world as the birthday of Christ; a time to exchange gifts, have family reunions, enjoy roast turkey or goose; a time replete with its own nostalgic music, feelings of good will, and hospitality. ...
Pagan feasts revolved around the seasons because Satan the devil has counterfeits he has foisted on the world to deceive. They were based upon celestial observations, the summer and winter solstices, the vernal equinox. Most pagan holidays were essentially harvest festivals. Pagans prayed to their "invincible sun" (invictus solis) in the depths of winter to begin "his" journey further north once again, putting an end to winter, and bringing the springtime, and new growth.
In What Season Was Christ Born?
Even though there are no records which show the date of Christ’s birth, there is sufficient evidence within the Bible itself which clearly reveals that this birth was nowhere near, of all days, December 25.
First, to show this, let us consider the time of Christ’s ministry which we find revealed in the Gospel record.
The Gospels show that Christ ministered a little over three years. To be exact, a prophecy in Daniel 9:27 shows that Christ would preach the Gospel for three and one-half years, or for one-half of a prophetic week. (A natural week has seven days.) This section of Daniel describes a prophetic week or a period of seven prophetic days. In this prophecy, each day equals one year. Daniel, then, is speaking about a seven-year period; and in the midst of that period, that is, at the end of three and one-half years, Christ’s earthly ministry would come to an end. (See Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6). This Scripture in Daniel gives us a clear prophecy telling us that Christ’s ministry would last 3 ½ years!
What does this show? Very much!
Since we know that Christ’s ministry came to an end at Passover time in A.D. 31, then 3 ½ years preceding the spring of A.D. 31 would put the commencement of His ministry in the early autumn of A.D. 27.
But what does this probe? Let us see!
The Gospel further tells us that Christ began His ministry just as He was approaching 30 years of age (Luke 3:23). This was the age required by the Old Testament to which priests must attain before they could be installed as official ministers and preachers (Num. 4:30. The Jews also considered that 30 years of age was the age of maturity and real manhood.
Notice when this indication shows. Since Christ was just about 30 years old when He began His ministry in early autumn, A.D. 27, this clearly shows He was born sometime in the early autumn of 4 B.C. - 30 years before!
Autumn the Only Possible Season!
There are many proofs which point to an early autumn birth of Christ. For example, if Christ had been born in any of the season preceding autumn 4 B.C. (that is, spring or summer of 4 B.C.), He would have been past 30 at the commencement of His ministry. But the Scripture says He was about or approaching 30.
Also, let us consider the season immediately after autumn 4 B.C. - the winter. If He had been born in the winter of 4-3 B.C. then He could, of course, have been under 30 when He began preaching (as the Gospel says). But this season is out of the question! Here is why! We have the plain testimony of the Scriptures that the flocks were still in the fields at the time of Christ’s birth (Luke 2:8). The flocks were never in the fields in Palestine during the winter season. They were kept inside barns or in protected places during the months from mid-October to mid-March. See Clarke’s Commentary on Luke 2:8. The late autumn and winter of Palestine were too severe for the flocks to remain in the open and unprotected from the rain, wind and frost. Notice Matthew 24:20 for a reference of Palestinian winters.
These facts alone prove that an early autumn 4 B.C. date is the only conceivable period in which Christ could have been born!
More Proof: The Temple Ritual!
In the New Testament we have another important chronological feature which will show the season of Christ’s birth. It concerns the time periods in which the Levitical priesthood served in the Temple. By comparing these prescribed times with certain New Testament references, we can arrive at the very season for the birth of Christ.
In the day of Christ, the Aaronic priesthood which offered the sacrifices in the Temple at Jerusalem was divided into 24 separate divisions. Each division (called a "course)) had one chief priest who was chosen by lot to represent the whole division in the Temple for a week’s period. This chief priest was to offer the evening and morning sacrifices and the incense offerings.
The priesthood was divided into 24 courses by David. In his time there had become so many priests that all could not possibly serve in the Sanctuary at the same time. So David divided them into 24 courses and gave instructions that one course should serve in the Sanctuary for one week, then the next course could serve the following week, etc. These 24 courses of the priesthood are described in I Chronicles 24. The names of the individual courses are given from verse 7 through 19.
We are further told by Jewish records that each of these courses began serving at noon on a Sabbath and continued their services until noon the next sabbath - a one-week period (Sukkah, 55b). The Jewish historian , Josephus, who lived during the time of the Apostle Paul and was himself a priest belonging to the first of the 24 courses (Josephus’ Life 1), also tells us that each one of these courses served for one week, from Sabbath (Antiquities, vii, 14,7).
The Jewish records again tell us that the courses also served bi-annually - twice in the year. That is, the first course would begin serving in the spring of the year, on the first week of the sacred year. The second course would serve the second week, etc. This went on until the twenty-fourth course had served. Then, in the autumn of the year, at the first week of the civil year, the first course would commence again and all of the courses would repeat the order. Thus, on each of the 48 weeks during the year one particular course of the priests served in the Temple.
But, added to these 48 weeks are 3 extra weeks in the year during which ALL 24 of courses served together. These 3 weeks were during the three major Holy Day periods: the Passover in the beginning of spring; Pentacostin late spring; and Tabernacles in the early autumn. Because multitudes of people were always in Jerusalem at these three times of the year, ALL 24 courses of the priests stayed on in Jerusalem and served together in the Temple (Sukkah, 55b).
So, the 51 weeks of the Hebrew Calendar accounted for. (Occasionally, a 13th month was added to the calendar to allow the months to remain in their proper seasons of the year. When this extra month was added, the priests who officiated in the 12th month repeated their service in the 13th - Miggalah 6b).
It is important to realize that the first course of these 24 divisions began their ministration with the first Sabbath in the first Hebrew month - that was Nisan, in the very early spring. See especially I Chronicles 27:1,2 and following verses.
With this information, it becomes possible to know the particular weeks in which each of the 24 priestly courses served in the Temple. And consequently, we can know the time period in which some significant New Testament events took place. Let us now see the importance of this information with regard to Christ’s birth.
The Course of Abijah
In the Gospel of Luke we are told that a certain priest named Zacharias was performing his service in the Temple at Jerusalem when a most marvelous thing happened. He was privately told that his wife Elisabeth, who was quite advanced in years, was going to conceive and bear a son and that the son’s name was to be John.
This, of course, is familiar to us all. But I wonder how many have noticed the time period in which Zacharias received this information? Let us notice this section of Scripture closely.
"There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, OF THE COURSE OF ABIA [Abijah in Hebrew]: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth" (Luke 1:5).
This scripture clearly tells us the particular course of the 24 priestly divisions that Zacharias was serving in. It was the course of Abijah.
Notice further!
"And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest’s office before God IN THE ORDER OF HIS COURSE, according to the custom of the priest’s office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the Temple of the Lord’ (Luke 1:8,9).
Now this is very significant! It shows that Zacharias was serving in the prescribed time intended for the course of Abijah. By referring to I Chronicles 24:10, you will see that the course of Abijah was the eighth in order!
This plainly means that he was ministering in the ninth week after the beginning of God’s first month Nisan. The reason it was the ninth week and not the eighth is that the Passover season always occurs in the first month and during the third week. Since all 24 courses served that particular week, according to the laws set down by David, this means that Zacharias officiated during the ninth week after the beginning of Nisan, the first month in spring.
Now comes the question: On what days did Zacharias serve?
The year in which all of this occurred was 5 B.C. The first day of Nisan in this year was a Sabbath, the very day on which the first priestly course began its ministration. On our Romans Calendar, this day was April 6. Thus, by simple arithmetic, Zacharias, who served in the ninth week, was serving form Iyar 27 to Sivan 5 (June 1- June 8). This was the time he was told his wife was going to conceive and bear a son. But let us go one step further.
There was no chance of Zacharias leaving immediately after the ninth week to return home. Why? Because the next week was a Holy Day "week" - it was Pentecost! Zacharias was obliged to remain over one more week with the other 23 priestly courses and serve in the Temple. This extra service kept him in Jerusalem until Sivan 12, or June 15. At that time he was free to return to his home in the hill country about 30 miles south of Jerusalem.
Now why are all these dates important. We will see if we pay attention to what the sacred writer tells us.
"And it came to pass that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house (Luke 1:23).
This shows Zacharias returned home immediately after his ministration and then his wife conceived (verse 24). This would have occurred about the first week after he returned from Jerusalem. Gabriel had told him that he was to remain dumb, completely speechless until the child was born. It should be obvious that no man would want to stay in such a condition - and certainly no longer than necessary. And too, Zacharias was a righteous man and was anxious to see God’s command fulfilled. So, with reasonable assurance, Elisabeth must have conceived sometime immediately after Pentecost week! This week was from Sivan 12 to Sivan 19 (mid-June).
With this information we are able to come to the exact season for John the Baptist’s birth.
The human gestation period is very near 280 days or 9 months and 10 days. If we go forward this amount of time from about Sivan 16 or mid-June in 5 B.C. we arrive at about the first of Nisan (March 27th) 4 B.C. The birth of John the Baptist was undoubtedly near this time - in the very early spring.
Now, let us come to the main question: What about the birth of Christ?
The Gospel says that Christ was just 6 months younger than John the Baptist (Luke 1:26,36).
And, by adding this six months to the time of John’s birth (the 1st of Nisan), we come to about the 1st of Tishri or near mid-September for the birth of Christ.
So again, we arrive at an early autumn birth for Christ. So Christ was not born in the winter after all!
I don't deny that the traditional church abandoned the feast days of the Lord over time. This was predicted in scripture. And as you just read it became heretical to keep the feast days after the council of Laeodecia.
If you're really interested in sabbath keeping throughout history there are plenty of resources on the web. Google "sabbath keeping throughout history" or variants.
The fact that Jesus Christ and biblical Christians should be enough for anyone.
i don’t deny you won’t find a group here and there at various times that kept the 7th day sabbath.
what i do deny is that the Christian Church ever did, as no one in the NT ever kept the sabbath after Pentecost and the Catholic Faith received from the Apostles did not include keeping the sabbath.
The trappings have to do with HOW you celebrate. And frankly it’s hilarious to see all these Christians whining about the “war on Christmas” while putting up pagan decorations.
Why do Christians care what non-Christians do? You’re the guys insisting the Yule Tree must be called a Christmas tree even when it’s bought by Jews.
.
Because Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church and that He would be with us always, even to the end of the age.
The implication is that the Roman church is the TRUE church of Yeshua. There is no evidence to prove that as a fact. And evidences to the contrary abound.
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to lead the Church to all truth and make it so it is impossible to fool the elect.
The elect take the narrow road, not the wide one.
I know it is probably embarassing for someone such as yourself to look at history and not be able to find anyone who agrees with these sabbath keeping doctrine and still celebrating the OT feasts for about 1,800 years.
Embarassing? not at all. There have been Sabbath keepers all the way along. It is unfortunate that they fell beneath the sword of the Roman Empire (along with the Jews), and later fell again under the sword of the unholy Roman Crusades (along with the Jews), but then, that is what Yeshua said would happen to His Assembly... Those who have the testimony of Yeshua AND keep the commandments of YHWH...
There is a good reason the Church never kept the Sabbath and stopped celebrating these feasts, to do so would be to deny Jesus Christ.
One who follows a Rabbi keeps the words of that rabbi. Following his example is the affirmative action. *NOT* following his example is to deny him. The example of Yeshua is to keep the Torah explicitly, to include the Holy Days.
The Sabbath pointed to Jesus and the rest we would have in Him, to keep it would deny this fact.
Yet Yeshua kept the Sabbath, as did his disciples. Even Paul, when the kid fell out the window at midnight... The custom was to gather after the sabbath, in the evening to break bread... Paul was talking till midnight... from the evening when the Sabbath was over until midnight, that is.
The Passover pointed to Jesus and His death for our sins, to still celebrate it would be to deny Jesus DIED already. He gave us His Body, the Eucharist to celebrate. First Fruits points to Jesus and His resurrection as our First Fruits.
But you don't celebrate Passover or first fruits.
why still celebrate types and shadows that pointed to Jesus Christ, when He has come and fulfilled them?
When Paul clued us in to 'types and shadows of good things to come', it was long after the resurrection... and the 'good things' were still to come. Hence Paul indicates the validity of those Holy days in his time.
Satan does not own 12/25, the Church has chosen that day to celebrate the greatest gift of all time, namely the gift from the Father of His own Son, that who so ever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
But YHWH already has a holy day for that purpose.
the Church has chosen 12/25, but could change it tomorrow to 3/3, 9/1, 11/21 or any other day it wishes. so who cares whether you choose to celebrate Christ’s Mass on 12/25
That it feels, in it's hubris, that it can change the holy days ordained by YHWH shows it is not what it thinks it is.
Like I said before, the prophets speak of a time during the Reign of the King, and *none* of the Roman inventions are mentioned therein. Yet the holy days of YHWH (at least three of them and the weekly Sabbath) ARE in evidence. How do we get from here to there?
The Church, here for 1,979 years, will and will continue to do so until Jesus comes again. deal with it.
Deal with it? I make no deal with it. I wish to worship in spirit and in TRUTH.
Excellent!
Thanks for your kind reply.
Not so. It was the normal practice of the biblical church to keep the sabbath. The best example of this is in Acts:
Act 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
No doubt in their minds WHEN to congregate. On the sabbath. Makes perfect sense since this was found in scripture and was the practice of those who worshipped the true God.
Act 13:43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Act 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.
The whole city came when...on the sabbath. It was THE day recognized as belonging to the Lord of heaven and earth. There is and was no other.
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