Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
MANY of the people? Just how many people have you met who hold to that view, because for all my connections with non-Catholic Christianity, even I haven't run into that many who hold that view. Just where do you find all these people?
Then point them to this verse.....
Genesis 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord.
I'm going to bet that CB's response is *No* because he holds to Scripture as authoritative.
I would contend it was not in ignorance as much as it was trying not to be in opposition to the CCC and Rome. I would even suggest that the answer was checked against what the RCC has written on the matter.
MANY of the people? Just how many people have you met who hold to that view,””
Arnold Murray and Shepherds Chapel- He has had his own TV show for many years. This guy has a huge following
http://www.shepherdschapel.com/index.htm
I guess post #4437 troubles you?
That is good, it should make you realize that our Lord is Merciful
Yes, I am saying that and I don't see the contradiction. More in a minute.
I also am not a machine but a human being answering ~20 posts a day. Granted, I treat your posts with greater attention because I detect in you an ability to argue intelligently. Nevertheless, I cannot be emitting well-rounded encyclopedia style articles each time someone, especially someone prone to flippant one-liner posts raises a subject. Besides, in this particular exchange there was a word "misleading" which made it as if by agreeing to the gist of the post I also accused the born-again of intentionally being deceptive. What I meant was that these statements of feeling born-again, elated, lead by the Holy Ghost are typically a lure; however, I did not intend to put into question sincerity of the people with these feelings. What is a lure? It is an emotional condition that comes not from the Holy Spirit but from our passions; that is, coming exactly from the part of self we are supposed to control and sanctify through our works of faith and love. It is felt very strongly and in fact cannot be overcome by will alone, but by prayer and fasting (cf Romans 7:5-6, Matthew 17:20, Romans 8:13).
So why is it that you see a contradiction where there is none? There is a assumption in Protestantism that salvation is not merely by faith alone but also is static, binary proposition: not saved, then saved, end of story. Another is that the condition of the mind is already saving faith. These two combined together mean that the sacrament of baptism has, supposedly no value outside of the emotional state of the new Christian. The direct scriptural reference to the salvific nature of baptism as sacrament, 1 Peter 3:21, is, as many other inconvenient scripture, ignored.
So what is the truth? Proper baptism done in a Protestant setting is a valid sacrament (a priest is not required for baptism and so any heretic Christian or even a non-Christian can baptize). At that point, perhaps despite a sincere belief in Luther, Calvin, and their legion, and heartfelt denial of things Catholic the newly baptized believer is ... gasp ... Catholic because he chose to undergo a Catholic sacrament driven by love of Christ and desire to unite with Him. Then what happens? Not fed by the Holy Eucharist (that, unlike baptism cannot happen but on a Catholic altar), not instructed in virtue, not believing in works in general have anything to do with salvation; often even believing that his future sins are all forgiven and his sanctification complete, -- the new baptized Catholic stops being Catholic, has nowhere to confess his sins, hardens in presumption of his own salvation and sanctity and becomes lost.
No question, a Catholic can grow tepid in his faith as well. But for him, there is the Church, the constant prayer of the saints, the presence of Christ will, we hope, keep him in the palm of the Lord. A protestant, on the other hand, especially one arguing around against Catholicism, is like a seed fallen on the asphalt of modernity, -- he does not have a culture that nourishes his soul.
But life goes on. A sincere reflection, a scripture read outside of the carefully chosen by his lying pastor stream of Protestant prooftexts, fear of death, pain,-- push the poor lost soul back to union with God and he discovers, or rediscovers, the Catholic Church. That could become a saving experience, even if done at the hour of death, when Mary our mother will pray for him. But not for all, not even for many. That is the tragedy of Protestantism.
Im not even going to address something like that. If you believe that Muslims and Catholics serve the same God Catholics have a bigger problem than I even have learned about.
>>So according to you, if a muslim women who loves unconditionally gives up her life to save her baby from a terrorist ends up in hell even though she has never heard of Christ<<
So you dont believe that a belief in Christ as savior is needed for salvation? Scripture is rather clear on that.
>>So much for the God of mercy<<
The whole statement is the God of Mercy and Justice. He wouldnt be the perfect God if it didnt include justice. Man is born in sin. Without the shed blood of Christ is destined for hell. Only the reliance on Christ as our only savior can we escape the justice. Anyone who does not believe on the Lord Jesus is lost.
Because salvation is a GIFT given by God to those who trust Him. It is not earned, that is why works cannot advance our salvation.
What saves us is FORGIVENESS and God not counting our sin against us, not us working to make up for them.
Doing good, overcoming evil with good, glorifies God because nothing good dwells in us. Any good in us comes from God and that is why our doing good glorifies Him. It is Him working in us to will and to do according to His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13)
Salvation is not by works.
FWIW, muslims have heard of Jesus. They consider Him a prophet, although not the Son of God. Thery consider the OT and NT as holy books.
They know enough. They are without excuse.
Gospel in Islam
A bronze snake would be a graven image and pagan yet God Told Moses that people who look upon it would be healed of snake bites.
It likely BECAME pagan after people were healed after LOOKING on it.
It does not justify taking pagan religious symbols and trying to *Christianize* or *reform* them.
You know, I think that is a problem with Catholic thinking, that people and things can be *reformed*.
It's not true. God doesn't reform humans, He demands death for sin. We must die in order to become a new creature in Christ.
Galatians 2:19-20 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
That's where works based salvation fails because it's based on the works the old corrupted person does and offers to God and the works done that way are as filthy rags to Him because they are also corrupted.
There is a strain of Protestantism that has it more or less correct, as the Joint Catholic-Lutheran Statement of Justification showed. With them I do not argue, but I do argue with the evil fruit of Luther who would not understand, let alone sign that statement.
lack of warrant from Scripture
LOL, James 2 flatly denies salvation by faith alone and explains why.
i see not even an acknowledgment of your error
Because there is no error. You did show me some language from the Church fathers, and I countered that it is Luther who developed "by faith alone" in direct contradiction with plain scripture, not that Catholic sloppy writer or translator. So the fraud is also his, Luther's.
Modern Evangelical Protestantism, even in its present state, outshines Roman Catholicism overall in evidences of faith
You remember your prooftexts. Catholics meet with living God. We don't have the same basis of comparing faith. Also, I do not defend fallible Catholics but the Holy Catholic Church.
declared herself infallible
Matthew 18:18, Acts 20:28.
And you’ve met many of the people from his church personally?
Then, are all saved?
26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for In him we live and move and have our being; as even some of your own poets have said, For we are indeed his offspring.
29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.
Then, are all saved?
It is true that all good comes from God, but some wish to glorify God, others don't. It looks like something is required of you. (Sorry for previous, pressed Post too soon).
This is like your silly statement that if Christ is shown on the Cross, we must not be aware of the fact of His resurrection.
I already did articulate - Perhaps you mean for me to elaborate... Such a thing cannot be handled in a missive, but rather, a tome. All I can do is invite you to read the koran and asoc. hadiths with an eye toward it's prophecy. You will most certainly change your mind.
And a prophet is only a prophet if he declares a god - so what he declares defines the god he serves. the god Mohammed serves says he is the one true god of Abraham but he is not the same entity as YHWH.
Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
But you forgot the next verses.
Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
That verse tells us two things. First, the church is wherever two or three are gathered in my name. Second, the ability to bind and loose is also give to any two or three who are gathered in the name of Jesus.
Then you posted this.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
You do understand that it was Paul talking to the elders of Ephesus only. They were only the elders of that local church not an overall governing body.
It’s from Scripture.
Your issue is with the Holy Spirit.
Yes, I am aware he is talking the company line... Almost word-for-word... It is my intent that he might go look for himself!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.