Catholics, Protestants, and Immaculate Mary

The Catholic Thing ^ | December 8, 2012 | David G. Bonagura, Jr.

[metmom]

Then, are all saved?

Of course not. That doesn't mean that God can't use unbelievers. He did use a donkey at one time.

It is true that all good comes from God, but some wish to glorify God, others don't. It looks like something is required of you.

What is required of us is to trust Christ to simply believe in Jesus.

John 6:28-29 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

[CynicalBear]

On the issue of those “images” you may want to see post 4396

[boatbums]

That removes almost ALL of Christendom from your acceptance. It also appears to remove you from the rest of Christendom as well.

No it doesn't! CB has made it clear numerous times what he means by linking the celebration of some so-called Christian holidays with those of pagan religions and the very SAME subject was discussed on other threads just last month. Yet, here you are once again using whatever you can find to attack him because he refuses to play your games. I actually agree with him about several points. Both Cynical Bear and I believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, it's the connections over the centuries that have merged pagan ideas with "Christian" ones that a lot of us object to. Are you going to start pinging your list and badgering me now, too?

Here are a few points I'm talking about:

Though the resurrection was the pinnacle of the Christian faith, other than Christians meeting together on the first day of the week, they had no special "feast days" or "lenten" services and rules in the first few centuries to mark the time. In fact, since most early Christians were Jewish, they continued to celebrate the Passover only with a new and joyful understanding of the fulfillment of the time. There were NO Easter "bunnies" or colored eggs - since these were rituals of pagans who worshiped the goddess Eostre (Eos) and the arrival of spring with the use of rabbits - rapid reproduction - and eggs, signifying fertility. Did the early church observe this:

No, I contend they did not and this is really all that is meant by making the truthful statement that these kinds of observances are pagan and clearly ARE condemned by God in Scripture. A little CONTEXT goes a long way towards understanding. Try it sometime.

[CynicalBear]

Standing on the word of God alone is surely rock solid.

[mitch5501]

A.M.E.N.

[boatbums]

>> “Christ can purify and reclaim anything with its roots in human culture, just as He purifies and reclaims everything with its roots in our human nature. He’s the incarnate Savior. He has assumed (taken up and transformed) our human nature. It’s what He does.”<<

Not against His own word He can’t.

Woe to them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who sees us? and who knows us? (Isaiah 29:15)

You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with death, with the grave we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood our hiding place." (Isaiah 28:15)

"Woe to the obstinate children," declares the LORD, "to those who carry out plans that are not mine, forming an alliance, but not by my Spirit, heaping sin upon sin; (Isaiah 30:1)

I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you. (Isaiah 57:12)

Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD. (Jeremiah 23:24)

He said to me, "Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the darkness, each at the shrine of his own idol? They say, 'The LORD does not see us; the LORD has forsaken the land.'" (Ezekial 8:12)

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. (Ephesians 5:1)

to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' (Acts 26:18)

The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. (Romans 13:12)

These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. (I Corinthians 10:11)

For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (Ephesians 5:8)

[boatbums]

Excellent point! Thank you. I think it should be obvious that, though the spirit of antichrist was always around pushing people away from the truth, God REMAINS a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

[boatbums]

In the introduction to the Trail of Blood, it lays out what the writer considered the "true" marks of a genuine New Testament church of Jesus Christ and I can say I agree with them. They are (from http://www.fbinstitute.com/trail/intro.htm):

1. Its Head and Founder--CHRIST. He is the law-giver; the Church is only the executive. (Matt. 16:18; Col. 1:18)

2. Its only rule of faith and practice--THE BIBLE. (II Tim. 3:15-17)

3. Its name--"CHURCH," "CHURCHES." (Matt. 16:18; Rev. 22:16)

4. Its polity--CONGREGATIONAL--all members equal. (Matt. 20:24-28; Matt. 23:5-12)

5. Its members--only saved people. (Eph. 2:21; I Peter 2:5)

6. Its ordinances--BELIEVERS' BAPTISM, FOLLOWED BY THE LORD'S SUPPER. (Matt. 28:19-20)

7. Its officers--PASTORS AND DEACONS. (I Tim. 3:1-16)

8. Its work--getting folks saved, baptizing them (with a baptism that meets all the requirements of God's Word), teaching them ("to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you"). (Matt. 28:16-20)

9. Its financial plan--"Even so (TITHES and OFFERINGS) hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel," (I Cor. 9:14)

10. Its weapons of warfare--spiritual, not carnal. (II Cor. 10:4; Eph. 6:10-20)

11. Its independence--separation of Church and State. (Matt. 22:21)

[narses]

Nope. Very clear words that differ from your spin. You can defend anyone you want, but your opinions are at odds with the facts.

Now, do you reject the Apostles Creed?
Do you reject celebrating Christmas and Easter?

Do you agree with these statements?

“All of the Lent and Easter abomination is pagan and God clearly condemned it in scripture.”

“God doesn’t smile down on people who celebrate Easter.”

[narses]

[Alamo-Girl]

Indeed, what an excellent point, dear roamer_1!

The Pharisees and scribes had a thousand plus year old claim to teaching authority. But Jesus said:

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. - Mark 7:7-9

They probably had traditions which do not reject the commandments of God, but Christ continued with an example of one that does:

For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, [It is] Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; [he shall be free]. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. - Mark 7:10-13

So regardless of the label on the assembly of Christians, it is crucial to test all traditions against the words of God. His words come first and we must not add to them or take anything away from them.

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. – Deuteronomy 4:2

Thank God that His own words are active - Spirit and life - so that each Christian can discern between the words of men and the words of God.

To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. – John 10:3-5

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:- Matt 13:14

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Cor 2:13

He is our teacher.

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. - I John 2:27

God's Name is I AM.

[narses]

Your statement is obviously made in ignorance. Very sad.

[narses]

[narses]

count-your-change wrote:

There is no room in Christian belief for the admittedly pagan practices of so many in Christendom.

This appears to have been in support of a poster who said:

“All of the Lent and Easter abomination is pagan and God clearly condemned it in scripture.”

“God doesn’t smile down on people who celebrate Easter.”

[narses]

count-your-change wrote:

There is no room in Christian belief for the admittedly pagan practices of so many in Christendom.

This appears to have been in support of a poster who said:

“All of the Lent and Easter abomination is pagan and God clearly condemned it in scripture.”

“God doesn’t smile down on people who celebrate Easter.”

[daniel1212]

I also am not a machine but a human being answering ~20 posts a day. Granted, I treat your posts with greater attention because I detect in you an ability to argue intelligently. Nevertheless, I cannot be emitting well-rounded encyclopedia style articles each time someone, especially someone prone to flippant one-liner posts raises a subject....

Enough. Thank you for your clarification, but there was a contradiction as you prior denied they were born again and part of the body (They don’t, aren’t,) and we cannot always read minds.

There is a assumption in Protestantism that salvation is not merely by faith alone but also is static, binary proposition: not saved, then saved, end of story.

That is very much a broad brush which ignores history as well as much of preaching today, and thus it does not indict sola fide, which sometimes (as in my Puritan history) was accused of making the way too narrow. Don't take Joel Osteen as your standard.

At that point, perhaps despite a sincere belief in Luther, Calvin, and their legion..

Another expression testifying to a very restricted knowledge of the faith you must oppose. Few converts today know much about Luther or Calvin, while the only real threats to you, and whom Rome fights, are those who are born again and leave dead churches to serve God as conservative Christians.

the newly baptized believer is ... gasp ... Catholic because he chose to undergo a Catholic sacrament

That is as absurd as saying that praying to the One True God and reading the OT Scriptures makes one part of Judaism and such need to return to them because they came from them. Even if Rome owned the copyright on baptism, the baptism of born again Christians is distinctly not Catholic, as it is a true confession of saving faith in the Lord Jesus, versus the infant sprinkling so many of them underwent by an infant who could not fulfill the Scriptural requirements of repentance and whole-hearted faith. (Acts 2:38; 8:36,37)

Then what happens? Not fed by the Holy Eucharist..

If the claims for the Eucharist was subject to FDA review Rome would be fined for false advertising. I was an altar boy and who went to Mass weekly, and who became born again while still a Catholic, and stayed attending faithfully for 6 years, during which i served as a CCD teacher and Lector, and know of what i speak. It is not the reception of the Eucharist that changes souls but becoming truly born again thru heartfelt contrite repentance and faith.

not instructed in virtue, not believing in works in general have anything to do with salvation;

No wonder you talk about a truncated faith, it is the only one you care to know of. The fact is there is more evidence of instruction in virtue in evangelical Bible churches than Catholics, as seen in the respective majority views of both classes.

he does not have a culture that nourishes his soul.

More evidence of ignorance. Rather than the 45 minute quickie called Mass, the singing in the typical evangelical church has just ended by then, followed by a 45 minute sermon and exhortations, while the majority of Christian bookstores and sales are evangelical and testify to the hunger for spiritual truth. And which is not simply Benny Hinn hype but the classics by such men as Matthew Henry, of which Rome has not the like. Not to mention the classic hymns by evangelical types which abound in quantity and quality, and Rome even uses some. Perhaps that makes them Protestant by your reasoning.

This has gone on long enough. You are bound to defend Rome and promote her regardless, and i must seek to go wherever the truth further leads, but the more the former is manifest then the more it testifies against her.

[boatbums]

Protestantism has no dogmatic teaching so there is nothing to adhere to other than the many self interpretations of what each person believes about faith and morals You have the good and the bad just like we do, but you have no concrete rules on many issues such as abortion, contraception , etc...

That is incorrect. Anyone who claims to be a Christian has the Bible as the authority and guide and it is full of "concrete" rules on all the issues that matter to a Christian if he only seeks to know them by the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit. I am not swayed by the false construct of there being genuine unity in the Roman Catholic Church. That there are millions who call themselves Catholics because of infant baptism and identify as that "denomination" on any form that asks the religion question, and yet who live their lives as functional atheists, proves that this unity and the structure that is supposed to guarantee it is a myth.

A careful - UNbiased - read through history more than adequately shows that genuine Christ-like faith and behavior peeks out only occasionally from the "fathers" of the faith and the further they get from the first century church the further their thoughts and musings evolve away from Biblical Christianity. I believe that the false teaching that the "church" is the one ONLY in Rome and its Pope, the ONLY genuine successor of the Apostles, served to further the error that whatever this leadership deemed true, was true. Instead of the "faith once delivered unto the saints" being passed down faithfully, it morphed into whatever WE decide is the faith, YOU must accept. Imagine for a moment if one of Timothy's disciples after Timothy died started developing his own doctrine on issues not taught in the Holy Scriptures. Would he have been able to "get away" with it? Not at first, I contend, but the further away from the time of the living Apostles, the further could men develop their own understanding and teach things NOT done in the early church.

The Roman Catholic Church's history is replete with the exact same thing. So, why, I wonder was there no one to stand up to them and object to this "new" doctrine that slowly became MANDATORY to believe? The answer is, of course, power. Not the power of the Holy Spirit, but temporal power that the Catholic Church found as it became one with the secular authorities. While Jesus specifically said, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's.", showing the two should be separate, the church was wooed away with the promise of wealth, power, influence and global reach. Since this began in the fourth century, we can see how the result was a cumulative effect.

So, rather than denigrate "Protestants" - which I have already said is nothing more than a "catch-all" name - for what they lack by not being more Catholic-like, I think the preferred way to judge has to be whether what they believe is the Christian faith once delivered unto the saints, and the only way that can be objectively determined is whether or not it can be proved by Scripture. Every church I have attended has a "Statement of Faith" - a "creed" - and everyone who wants to join goes through new-members classes where they learn what is believed before they can formally join.

We already both agree that Scripture is God-breathed - Divinely Inspired - and is the deposit for the truths taught by Jesus and the Apostles, so why shouldn't it be adequate for testing claims of truth? Why do you think the MAJOR tenets of the faith have not changed all this time? Like you said, there is good and bad, so we MUST have an unbiased, objective and authoritative source by which good OR bad can be determined. It CAN'T be a group of fallible men, who bring to the table their own likes, dislikes and prejudices. It MUST be the one thing God has ensured we still have to this day - His holy word, the Bible.

Look, I am not trying to be argumentative nor am I trying to cause anger or strife. I know I am a Christian and I KNOW I am going to heaven when I die because I have received Jesus Christ as my Savior and I trust in His sacrifice for my sins. I know I have the Holy Spirit within me because He has changed me completely in ways I could not if I wanted to or would not if I could. That is evidence that I am His. And, because I am His, no one, or thing, can ever snatch me out of His hands. Catholicism was NOT where He wanted me to stay nor is it where He wants me to return. I mean no offense by saying this. If you are happy there, stay. But don't insist that it is only your church that can save a person - I know that is not true!

[narses]

Pearls. Swine.

They embrace those who spout errant nonsense. They arrogate to themselves all knowledge.

E.G.

“All of the Lent and Easter abomination is pagan and God clearly condemned it in scripture.”

“God doesn’t smile down on people who celebrate Easter.”

Pearls. Swine.

[narses]

“Anyone who claims to be a Christian has the Bible as the authority and guide and it is full of “concrete” rules on all the issues that matter to a Christian if he only seeks to know them by the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit.”

And from that we arrive at:

“All of the Lent and Easter abomination is pagan and God clearly condemned it in scripture.”

“God doesn’t smile down on people who celebrate Easter.”

[narses]

metmom wrote:

Religion doesn’t mean anything. Church membership doesn’t count. Denominations are meaningless.

Really? You believe this nonsense?